Overland travel

[tony109]

Ive done some overland trips myself in my series 2a, all starting from darkest Cornwall. When driving to Kazan in Russia, temperatures got low but it was when we travelled back through Eastern Europe from Turkey that the temperatures caught us out. Fuel waxing was a problem, adding kerosene would have been ideal but I had to use petrol instead.. It worked well but slight waxing still took place. I had a cleanable primary filter that saved the day or I'd have run out of cartridge fuel filters.
Heres a few pictures from the last trip, somewhere in Romania.

[John Lund]

Hi Tony,

What an adventure :). Tell me, is that a tent in front of your Landy?...
did you spend the night in it? :eek:

More pics please. :)

John.

[109s3]

Hi Tony,

More pics please. :)

John.

Yes please and a story to with it! :)

[bvudzichena]

Tony,

Me thinks a trip report is called for.

[challisc]

Ace! I'll admit tony - your landrover had been well used!

More detials - when was this?

[tony109]

Without a schedule or a time limit allowed us plenty of scope to explore. We met some facinating people along the way. While in Turkey we went to the underground city in Cappadocia in or near Nevershef ( spelt wrong)
There we were approached by a farmer who needed parts for his tractor. The parts were in Ankora, so in exchange for a place to stay for a few days, their hospitality and food I went with the farmer to pick up his parts. This also allowed me to give the land Rover a thorough check over, grease up etc..
I towed a trailer this time to carry the camping gear, parts etc, which gave plenty of room in the land rover for the 4 of us.. There was going to be 5.
I didnt want a roof rack and it meant the actual weight of the land rover was reduced.. We could then unhook the trailer if needed. Not that I ever did. The trailer was a Sanky, painted in a non military colour, a light blue.
The land rover being old I think helped greatly in poorer countries, since the average car would be 1960-70's GAZ/MAZ 4wd or Volga saloon car found across Russia and eastern Europe. Only the wealthy or (Corrupt) had the means for anything newer it seems.. Being western and flashing your cash in a new car could well be recipe for problems.
I'd been arrested the year before when travelling through Belarus, for incorrect Visa papers sold to me by the boarder guards. I was more careful this time so we had no problems like that to talk about.
I was very pleased with the way the Land rover performed.. But with many miles on tarmac roads crossing eastern Europe it could be expensive.. When travelling through Italy a tunnel under the Alps could be taken.. This was both expensive and rather boring, so we drove over the Alps. Steep narrow roads, and what a view., A must see drive.
In Russia the adventure really started, there would be many police check points on the main motor way size roads. I was warned about the need to give money to the police, but this was total nonsence.. The police were very friendly and inquisitive but I had no problems, thanks maybe to our more humble appearance?

[MPi-KMS-72]

Tony- What were the lowest temperatures you encountered? Diesel Waxing (we call it gelling here) is a major winter nuisance here, most northern states run two grades of diesel fuel, one for winter and one for summer but if you get caught with the wrong one or get some from a service station that has not switched over yet for some reason it can be a real pain in the a$$. Some of my most vivid memories of winter involve screwing around with stranded gelled up diesels. :(

Hey have you ever read about the Turtle expedition? they made an interesting crossing of Siberia:
http://www.turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle4.php

Not rover related but interesting. Their earliest expedition vehicle was a LR 109:
http://www.turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle1.php

[alex]

Good stuff. How did the Landrover heater "perform"? . What mpg on the tarmac with 900 tyres? Nice links mpi.......that Ford looks good.

Alex

[tony109]

The lowest temperature we encountered was off the scale on our thermometer at around -40C. For heating we had the standard, Round Smiths heater, very effective it is too, at warming the nearside passengers leg.
I wore a ski suite, 2/3 pairs of socks and some gloves, plus I sweated alot listening for any problems, and regularly checking everything. Everyone else made do with blankets, etc..
The Russian diesel is very good and we had no waxing problems whilst there, plus it made the 2 1/4 diesel perform like never before. Once back in Euro zone, performance levels sadly returned.
I was averaging 26 Mpg and towing a trailer, which I was quite pleased with.
That Turtle expedition looks slightly better prepared than we were, but we didnt venture anywhere near as far east.
My next idea is to do Mongolia, so once my land rovers rebuilt, who knows.

[MPi-KMS-72]

Mongolia would be cool, I'd just be happy with Alaska myself... :D

The Russian diesel is very good and we had no waxing problems whilst there

Ha! I'd expect that they'd have it down pat by now... ;) There is a noticeable drop here in MPG between winter Fuel and summer fuel- At least there was back when I had my VW diesels. There seemed to be a performance difference too.

I think If I were you I'd invest in another heater- they are easy enough to change- here in North America we had an optional heater called the "Kodiak" It will heat a 109 or drive you right out of an 88 when in good shape- it also uses fresh air so it can lower the condensation in the truck. http://www.pangolin4x4.com/pangolin4x4/reference/lib/kodiaksite/kodiak.html

The one failing of the Kodiak is heat distribution, you have a lot of dead air in the back and it is tough to circulate the warm air back there. A rear heater like that in a FJ40 or something would be a worthwhile addition in any 109 IMHO.

[alex]

26mpg is good. It`s one of the drawbacks on touring with 4by is the fuel bills. 200 tdi is good mind you.

Alex

[bvudzichena]

200 tdi is good mind you.

Alex

Can't say the same for the 2.6 or V8 :eek:

[alex]

How come people who are not milionaires can drive at 12 mpg?:D

Alex

[bvudzichena]

How come people who are not milionaires can drive at 12 mpg?:D

Alex

You just wait until your SWAMBO decides she wants to go to work (25 mile round trip) in a sixpot that gives 10mpg on a good day :eek:

[tony109]

Im amazed that the latest land rovers being built return little more than my 2 1/4. Sure they may perfom better, but just wait until your really against it. Will that timing belt let you down in the middle of nowhere?
A petrol of any kind would be unwise, so inefficient and vulnerable. Covering distanve in a motor doing 10 MPG would soon become a struggle, even if you could afford it. Petrol in hot climates is dodgy stuff to carry around and in the cold damp climates, petrol engines become a nightmare. Theses days sourcing petrol fuel can be far more of a problem than diesel.
The 2 1/4's lack of performance only really noticed when travelling the motor way routes..

[MPi-KMS-72]

To be honest I really can't complain about my Petrol 2.25, it has never let me down in a way that has prevented my ability to return home. Sure there was that time I melted the points but that was my fault and could have been easily prevented, as it was I was able to make a set scratch and get home. Before changing to a 2 barrel Weber it used to get 17MPG US and that was without an overdrive. It starts on the first push of the starter to -25F and has been as faithful as they come. In North Amercia Deisel supplies are getting better but there wre places where it simply is not available, this was much more of a problem in the 1980s than it is now.

I'm surprised the more modern diesels do not do much better MPG wise? If I make the conversion I need to figure out the Miles per Dollar I guess, or cents per mile. One engine vs the next.

[tony109]

Along side the main roads in Russia are inspection ramps to allow owners to carryout maintanance and more if needed. I took advantage of these myself and gave the landrover a full greace up.
Taking the back roads allowed us to see the more some incredible places.

[alex]

Good stuff Tony. The thing is that the 2.25d is a nice engine. Off road it is really decent. It is just getting accross the country on motorway that is the slog with it. As we all know the prob in putting another engine in is the complexity
that it might add or the strength of the gearbox issue.At the moment detuned 200tdis seem to be going in....so it will be interesting to see how gearboxes last long term

The thing with modern landys and cars is [I]weight.[I] . It is incredible really with all the add ons and equipment that is built into modern vehicles.

Every modern fourby is about a third up on weight of the model it superceded 15yrs previous. A good example of it all is that a modern Mini Cooper weighs slightly more than a 1960s Ford Zephyr 6 cylinder:eek:

Alex

[tony109]

Good stuff Tony. The thing is that the 2.25d is a nice engine. Off road it is really decent. It is just getting accross the country on motorway that is the slog with it. As we all know the prob in putting another engine in is the complexity
that it might add or the strength of the gearbox issue.At the moment detuned 200tdis seem to be going in....so it will be interesting to see how gearboxes last long term

The thing with modern landys and cars is [i]weight.[i] . It is incredible really with all the add ons and equipment that is built into modern vehicles.

Every modern fourby is about a third up on weight of the model it superceded 15yrs previous. A good example of it all is that a modern Mini Cooper weighs slightly more than a 1960s Ford Zephyr 6 cylinder:eek:

Alex

A Detuned 200tdi sounds crazy to me. They'll be running less efficient than they should, so you loose the MPG and you still have that rubber band driving your timing. It could let you down badly.. for that reason alone, the 200tdi is an unsuitable engine.
The 2.25 running correctly performs fairly well... The timing gears, idler etc are a very reliable design, but keeping the timing on 'Song' isnt easy. If you just keep the oil and water in the engine there is little more to worry about..
Like Society has become bigger and more bloated as life has become softer, the new Discovery (the ugly house brick) reflects this perfectly, along with the new mini. Cup holders, inseat computer games, sat nav...never mind the MPG.

[MPi-KMS-72]

OK you guys almose have me convinced to buy a 2.25 diesel for my 88"... ;) If you can convince me that hit can be hand crank started then I am sold.

No rubber band diesels for me thanks- been there- done that got the t-shirt.

[Snagger]

MPi - don't bother with the 2.25 diesel. It is a good and reliable engine, but it is not as good as a Tdi, which you could fit with the same ease, and I'd bet that a 200Tdi from a Discovery would be mush easier and cheaper to find over there than a 2.25 diesel.

The two engines will both fit the gearbox and chassis mounts. It'd be best to move the bottom studs on the Tdi flywheel case into the untapped holes to match the bellhousing, but many people just hoes leave them off. You would be able to use the SIII rad, but using the Discovery rad on top of the cross member would be better as it has greater cooling capacity and an in-built oil cooler.

The Tdi engine with the turbo removed would not require the intercooler or complicated piping, so you'd have plenty of space with the rad on the crss member to retain the viscous fan. You'd just need a n alteration on your down pipe to mate to the Disco manifold. It'd even allow you the space to leave the PAS pump on and the alternator in its current position (in the way for intercooler pipes) - you'd just need to have a small loop circuit with the resrvoir to keep the pump bearings lubricated.

The beauty of this is that the "200DI" would give you about 75 BHP, compared to the 10J's 61, and a reported 40mpg instead of the low to mid 20s of the older engine. Best still is that though you can run the older engine on vegoil if you have a heat exchanger and twin tank system, the Tdi is much more tollerant of it, and the injection system is much, much tougher generally. The Tdis are also much more reliable starters than the 10J's which can be a pig to start if the compression is down a little or the fuel system is not just right.

The 10J would require a new diesel ignition switch and heater plug circuit, and sustitution of the choke cable with the fuel shutoff cable. A Tdi would just need the timer relay from the donor vehicle and a feed from the battery - the ign switch and engine electrics are the same as on your petrol (just connect the coil feed to the fuel solenoid and a feed from the ign accessory circuits to the heater plug relay, and swap the temperature senders over).


They're both good engines, but given the choice of a more common, tougher engine of higher performance, much higher economy and greater reliability, plus the ability to run it on vegoil or an older, rarer, slower, thirstier and less reliable engine, I don't think it's rocket science which way to go...

Have a look at this site: http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm

[alex]

It`s what I like about old Patrols.... gear driven camshaft and no electronics. Injection pump is simple rotary like series. Could start a thread on hand cranking a diesel with no decompression lever. There was a gearset made to make it easier. Twin battery setups usually avoid the need for handles. My mate has bought a small International Truck. It`s about a 4tonner. Will get some pics MPI.

Alex

[alex]

MPi - don't bother with the 2.25 diesel. It is a good and reliable engine, but it is not as good as a Tdi, which you could fit with the same ease, and I'd bet that a 200Tdi from a Discovery would be mush easier and cheaper to find over there than a 2.25 diesel.

The two engines will both fit the gearbox and chassis mounts. It'd be best to move the bottom studs on the Tdi flywheel case into the untapped holes to match the bellhousing, but many people just hoes leave them off. You would be able to use the SIII rad, but using the Discovery rad on top of the cross member would be better as it has greater cooling capacity and an in-built oil cooler.

The Tdi engine with the turbo removed would not require the intercooler or complicated piping, so you'd have plenty of space with the rad on the crss member to retain the viscous fan. You'd just need a n alteration on your down pipe to mate to the Disco manifold. It'd even allow you the space to leave the PAS pump on and the alternator in its current position (in the way for intercooler pipes) - you'd just need to have a small loop circuit with the resrvoir to keep the pump bearings lubricated.

The beauty of this is that the "200DI" would give you about 75 BHP, compared to the 10J's 61, and a reported 40mpg instead of the low to mid 20s of the older engine. Best still is that though you can run the older engine on vegoil if you have a heat exchanger and twin tank system, the Tdi is much more tollerant of it, and the injection system is much, much tougher generally. The Tdis are also much more reliable starters than the 10J's which can be a pig to start if the compression is down a little or the fuel system is not just right.

The 10J would require a new diesel ignition switch and heater plug circuit, and sustitution of the choke cable with the fuel shutoff cable. A Tdi would just need the timer relay from the donor vehicle and a feed from the battery - the ign switch and engine electrics are the same as on your petrol (just connect the coil feed to the fuel solenoid and a feed from the ign accessory circuits to the heater plug relay, and swap the temperature senders over).


They're both good engines, but given the choice of a more common, tougher engine of higher performance, much higher economy and greater reliability, plus the ability to run it on vegoil or an older, rarer, slower, thirstier and less reliable engine, I don't think it's rocket science which way to go...

Have a look at this site: http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm

It sounds good. And without the turbo it should avoid the head and gasket issues. I always feel that 200lb ft and 120bhp is a lot to ask out of a little 2.5.

In a fourby you are always better with an understressed engine. It is definately something to think about.

Alex

[Snagger]

The 200Tdi has no head or gasket issues. They're usually good for the best part of 300,000 miles, and well looked after engines have exceeded 400. The 300 is a little more sensitive as the head was made thinned, and this sometimes caused problems like CanonballBob's or gasket failure behind no.4 cylinder at about 100-110 thousand miles, but is also regarded at a strong and reliable unit. However, the very tough engine would be near indestructible with the reduced stresses of removing the turbo, the fuel economy (normally 35mpg if driven gently) should rise to over 40mpg, and you would not have to worry about your transmission as the torque would be similar to that of the 5mb 2.25 petrol, and well inside the gearbox's safe limits.

I'm replacing my 2.5 12J diesel (almost identical to the 2.25 10J, but with a slightly longer stroke and 67BHP) with the Discovery 200Tdi. After a lot of wavering and worry, I'm going the full turbo and intercooler route, though I will never look for performance upgrades like JustMike's big intercooler and fuel pump tweaking. I just don't find the straight diesel powerful enough for dialy commuting or long trips with all the extra weight and drag on my 109. Given the distances that Americans tend to drive, I think you'd be better off with a 200, though your gearbox is probably a older suffix A, and so might not react well to the full torque available. The DI fit, or just fitting without the intercooler and lowering the fuel boost to match, should reduce peak torque to acceptable levels (about 75BHP/120'lb with no turbo, 95BHP/160'lb with no intercooler, and 111BHP/194'lb with normal setup).

[Snagger]

By the way, the rubber/kevlar timing belt only needs replacing every 72,000 miles, and only takes a couple of hours to do. A new OEM belt costs less than £8. I have never heard of one going that hadn't gone well over its due change milage. The system is every bit as robust as the earlier chains. The 300 had a problem on introduction due a production fault on the sprockets, but these were replaced under a call-back and have been fine ever since.

[alex]

Yes and a cam belt is something you should always change before a long trip if it has reached half of it`s service life I think . I know exactly what you are doing Nick..I do read all your threads mate:D.:D

Alex

[MPi-KMS-72]

MPi - don't bother with the 2.25 diesel. It is a good and reliable engine, but it is not as good as a Tdi, which you could fit with the same ease, and I'd bet that a 200Tdi from a Discovery would be mush easier and cheaper to find over there than a 2.25 diesel.

Well I must admit that part of my incentive is that I can get a good complete 2.25 for $250 US, and 200TDIs were never exported here- thus they are very expensive to get. $5k or so on average and that is a used one. Then the parts are virtually made of unobtanium here whereas the 2.25 still has reasonable support. The 2.25 diesels were VERY unpopular here because of their relative low power so you can often find decent ones for little $ because swapping them out for 2.25petrol engines was VERY popular here in the 1980's and 1990's.

The rubber timing belts have proven themselves over the years but I've known several that have gone here, usually in the winter and within the recommended service interval. IF a belt just happens to go to hell in Omaha Nebraska or some such place I'd be looking at a major lag in time awaiting the parts whereas 2.25d diesel parts are at the most a day away. I will freely admit that a well engineered rubber timing belt can work ok- I racked up over 700,000 miles in VW Diesels and only had 1 them fail in that time.

In the end though- I don't know as though the savings in fuel costs and potential cold weather frustrations would make the swap worthwhile. Gas being $3.10 a gallon and Diesel being $3.80...

[MPi-KMS-72]

oh and in all fairness I HAVE seen a 2.25 petrol with a failed timing system at ~90,000 miles. The plate the chain runs on came lose somhow(Maybe it was a Friday car?) and bound up the system thus breaking the end off of the camshaft... :O so no- timing chains aren't always perfect either.

[MPi-KMS-72]

It`s what I like about old Patrols.... gear driven camshaft and no electronics. Injection pump is simple rotary like series. Could start a thread on hand cranking a diesel with no decompression lever. There was a gearset made to make it easier. Twin battery setups usually avoid the need for handles. My mate has bought a small International Truck. It`s about a 4tonner. Will get some pics MPI.

Alex

Ahhh the Patrol... We never DID get many of them. Certainly no diesels, What model is that engine? there were some Nissan Diesels that were used here in International Scouts.

[MPi-KMS-72]

Nick- what is the curb weight of your LR?

[alex]

Yeah Nissan stopped selling Patrol to USA about 67? International put the sd33 3.3six pot into the Scout for 3yrs? Mine is the 4.2.six pot. It is N/A but turbos bolt on with no issues. It is a lazy sod but sits at 70mph @ 2000rpm.

Alex

[MPi-KMS-72]

Yeah Nissan stopped selling Patrol to USA about 67? International put the sd33 3.3six pot into the Scout for 3yrs? Mine is the 4.2.six pot. It is N/A but turbos bolt on with no issues. It is a lazy sod but sits at 70mph @ 2000rpm.

Alex

Yep I've only seen one Patrol firsthand and I think it was a '66 or '67. I read a rumor that they agreed to not sell them here- they cut some sort of a deal with Toyota to leave this market to the Landcruiser. We still don't get any Patrols so they tend to be a bit of a mystery to us.

The SD33 had a good reuptation here in the International Scouts, the salted roads have pretty much destroyed all of the vinntage scouts though- they are getting pretty rare and the Diesels were never a popular option here. I think they added 20% to the price over a top of the line V8 powered Scout. Thus the market really didn't support them and shortly after the Scout died off when International gave up the light duty truck line.


Recently over here Mercedes Diesels have become a popular swao, but the 4cy Mercedes isn't much of a step up from a 2.25D. The 5cyl Turbo Mervedes Benz diesel might be another matter though?

[tony109]

MPi - don't bother with the 2.25 diesel. It is a good and reliable engine, but it is not as good as a Tdi, which you could fit with the same ease, and I'd bet that a 200Tdi from a Discovery would be mush easier and cheaper to find over there than a 2.25 diesel.

The two engines will both fit the gearbox and chassis mounts. It'd be best to move the bottom studs on the Tdi flywheel case into the untapped holes to match the bellhousing, but many people just hoes leave them off. You would be able to use the SIII rad, but using the Discovery rad on top of the cross member would be better as it has greater cooling capacity and an in-built oil cooler.

The Tdi engine with the turbo removed would not require the intercooler or complicated piping, so you'd have plenty of space with the rad on the crss member to retain the viscous fan. You'd just need a n alteration on your down pipe to mate to the Disco manifold. It'd even allow you the space to leave the PAS pump on and the alternator in its current position (in the way for intercooler pipes) - you'd just need to have a small loop circuit with the resrvoir to keep the pump bearings lubricated.

The beauty of this is that the "200DI" would give you about 75 BHP, compared to the 10J's 61, and a reported 40mpg instead of the low to mid 20s of the older engine. Best still is that though you can run the older engine on vegoil if you have a heat exchanger and twin tank system, the Tdi is much more tollerant of it, and the injection system is much, much tougher generally. The Tdis are also much more reliable starters than the 10J's which can be a pig to start if the compression is down a little or the fuel system is not just right.

The 10J would require a new diesel ignition switch and heater plug circuit, and sustitution of the choke cable with the fuel shutoff cable. A Tdi would just need the timer relay from the donor vehicle and a feed from the battery - the ign switch and engine electrics are the same as on your petrol (just connect the coil feed to the fuel solenoid and a feed from the ign accessory circuits to the heater plug relay, and swap the temperature senders over).


They're both good engines, but given the choice of a more common, tougher engine of higher performance, much higher economy and greater reliability, plus the ability to run it on vegoil or an older, rarer, slower, thirstier and less reliable engine, I don't think it's rocket science which way to go...

Have a look at this site: http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm


The 2.25 diesel can run reliably on neat veg oil (SVO?) with little problem.. Ive run mine for years on the stuff. The accelorator linkage seal on the lucas CAV pumps does suffer but can be easily replaced with nylon. The standard flap valve lift pump wont handle it eithern so I've an electric lift pump.
The 200 tdi, a great engine producing around 200lbs/ft @ 1800rpm.. But just removing the turbo would leave an engine with low compression and over fueling, so you'd need to reduce the fuel delivery accordingly. Then your left with none of the advantages just reduced efficiency and a timing belt that has been known to fail well within the renewal period.
The Zeus timing gears were seen as the ultimate upgrade for the engine.. but have a search on here and you'll see pictures of dramatic failures caused by crankshaft ocilation.
Ive looked at the link snagger but im still not convinced

[MPi-KMS-72]

wel the 200TDi is pretty much a moot issue for me since I live in the US. It would be cool if they were as common as they are over there for you guys but they aren't. Plus what is this I hear about them starting to discontinue some of the 200tdi spares?

Nope. Most folks just replace the vehicle with a Newer Defender with a stronger turbo diesel that gets way better fuel mileage. To most of the world its about the same as having an American rancher with an old F-150 pickup in need of a lot of work and parts. Cheaper to scrap it & buy a better condition one. Its only the North Americans stuck with the old Land Rovers.

I maintain the Series parts Catalogue for British Pacific and every time I turn around I have to mark something NLA or remove it from the catalogue and when no aftermarket is equivalent, BP is sourcing companies with NOS part stocks just to keep parts on the shelf when LR discontinues them. There are some parts that only exist new in the parts pipeline.

As I recall, the largest size of oversize pistons have recently been discontinued along with 2.25 exhaust manifolds and the SIIA owners manual. New cylinder heads are 2.5L heads and require a metric bolt set to go with it. The 200tdi is the newest LR engine that will bolt onto a Series gearbox and even the cylinder heads, intake & exhaust manifolds have been discontinued for them.http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592&page=2


I'll have to give it some more thought, I really would like to re-enter the world of diesel fun and couple it with my LR fun.

By the way- talking of overlanding did anyone see this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-Rover-Series-APGP-AMPHIBIOUS-4X4-SERIES-IIA-CONDITION-COLLECTORS-GARAGED_W0QQitemZ220180587414QQihZ012QQcategoryZ62 96QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bvudzichena]

The 200Tdi has no head or gasket issues. They're usually good for the best part of 300,000 miles, and well looked after engines have exceeded 400. The 300 is a little more sensitive as the head was made thinned, and this sometimes caused problems like CanonballBob's or gasket failure behind no.4 cylinder at about 100-110 thousand miles, but is also regarded at a strong and reliable unit.

Mmgemini and Mrsgemini are currently touring Southern Africa in their 300TDi.

They recently spent a week with us and during that time we carried out some routine maintenance such as fluid and filter changes, checking the brakes and greasing the propshafts.

Less than 60 miles after they'd left here, I received a frantic call for help as their head gasket had decided that enough was enough and it was time to go.

Bang, just like that, for no reason whatsoever.

Fortunately the truck has a bunch of early warning systems, so all we needed to do was replace the head gasket, inlet manifold and exhaust gasets and the valve stem caps. The last one still has me confused.

The 200TDi's that I've owned have never given me grief or drama before 400,000km. In my case it's always been the oil pump that went, causing con rod #2 to bend. Again, I have no idea why that happened and why it always happened around 400,000km.

[Snagger]

The 2.25 diesel can run reliably on neat veg oil (SVO?) with little problem.. Ive run mine for years on the stuff. The accelorator linkage seal on the lucas CAV pumps does suffer but can be easily replaced with nylon. The standard flap valve lift pump wont handle it eithern so I've an electric lift pump.
The 200 tdi, a great engine producing around 200lbs/ft @ 1800rpm.. But just removing the turbo would leave an engine with low compression and over fueling, so you'd need to reduce the fuel delivery accordingly. Then your left with none of the advantages just reduced efficiency and a timing belt that has been known to fail well within the renewal period.
The Zeus timing gears were seen as the ultimate upgrade for the engine.. but have a search on here and you'll see pictures of dramatic failures caused by crankshaft ocilation.
Ive looked at the link snagger but im still not convincedI remember that Converse's 10J sheared its injector pump drive within minutes of starting up on his first test of (cloudy) biodiesel. The 12, 15 and 19J pumps are similar internally to the 10J's and are also reputed to be weak and vulnerable to SVO. I haven't had any problems yet, but I do have the benefit of a fuel heater. The elctric lift pump sounds like a useful idea.

The Tdi does have lower compression than the older engines, but the performance without turbo charging is still higher than on a 10 or 12J because of the direct injection. The fuel pump would not need any adjustment because it would not be recieving any boost pressure to the boost diaphragm, so it would only deliver fuel in measure to the rpm govenor and throttle position. If you fit a turbo without the intercooler, then you would indeed have a bit of smoke and overfueling because the pump would deliver the extra fuel in response to the turbo's boost pressure, but the lack of intercooling leaves the air less dense. This would just need the adjuster under the top diapragm cap turning down a tad to reduce the boost fueling.


As for the timing gears, you'll find a lot more comments against them than for - the rubber belt acts as a damper for the timing set, but the gears don't, so they tend to shatter their own teeth or shear the locating pin on the cam shaft, so timing is lost. They would appear to be much less reliable than the belts. They're certainly a damned sight noisier. Speak to Turners and ACR - you'll find that the gear sets void the warranty on their engines. As long as you replace the belt within the service interval, and immediately if you suspect it has been contaminated by dirt, fuel (injection pump seal failure), oil (crank seal failure) or water (wading without the plug fitted), then it's very unlikely to fail. As a precaution, I change mine every 60,000 miles instead of 72,000, but I am mechanically paranoid.

[alex]

Ah but not timing gears Per Se.............specifically Zeus versions for Landys.

Timing gears a la Nissan?.........unburstable and no maintenance or backlash. It`s different for yourself in the States Matt. In UK there are loads of 200 tdi spares left as backstock or s/h. That`s why different conversions suit different countries. I don`t doubt that the 200di is a doable. If you can bolt turbos onto N/A and adjust IP and dyno for best results.......you should be able to de-turbo a 200 tdi and adjust I would think.

Noise is a problem. I had one of the early discos 15yrs ago.....they are noisy........in a Series? ultra noisy Before anyone mentions a fancy soundproofing kit........they are about the price that I would pay for a good engine:D........but you pays your money and takes your choice:D

Alex

[Snagger]

I diodn't want top name the manufacturer of timing gear retro fit kits for LR engines for fear of legal action, but their gears have a bad reputation, anyway.

Matt, if you have easy and cheap access to a 10J and don't mind being limited to 55-60 mph on flat open roads (less uphill or into wind), then go for it. It is a good engine. I didn't realise that the Discovery only started selling in the US once it had the 300Tdi. Fitting one of those would be the same as a 200, except for the routing of the down pipe needing relocation of the lhs chassis mount. Running one without the turbo and using SIII manifolds could be done, but as it has a higher turbo boost pressure and lower CR than the 200 to produce smoother running, I doubt it'd be much more powerful than a 10J.

[alex]

I diodn't want top name the manufacturer of timing gear retro fit kits for LR engines for fear of legal action, but their gears have a bad reputation, anyway.

Matt, if you have easy and cheap access to a 10J and don't mind being limited to 55-60 mph on flat open roads (less uphill or into wind), then go for it. It is a good engine. I didn't realise that the Discovery only started selling in the US once it had the 300Tdi. Fitting one of those would be the same as a 200, except for the routing of the down pipe needing relocation of the lhs chassis mount. Running one without the turbo and using SIII manifolds could be done, but as it has a higher turbo boost pressure and lower CR than the 200 to produce smoother running, I doubt it'd be much more powerful than a 10J.

:D Very true mate. They are though more likley to get more out of an Airline Pilot than me.:D I started off with nothing and still got most of it left:eek:

Alex

[Carl]

Tony,
Great pics, must have been some journey. Who needs to be sweating across Africa, eh? Those ramps in the layby look like a good idea, and handy!

This thread reminds me of the TD5 vs TDi reliability thread only shifted a generation :D

Snagger - no diesel Discos of any model were ever imported to the US, all petrol.

[MPi-KMS-72]

As a precaution, I change mine every 60,000 miles instead of 72,000, but I am mechanically paranoid.

That is the interval that most VW enthusiasts here change their belts at. It seems like a sound practice to me and was what I is as well. A bit of a pain on those transverse 1.6s but it was better than a broken belt stranding you.

Timing gears would be a better solution if the engine was engineered to work with them from the get-go. I'm not sure any aftermarket ones would be a good solution. I've had VERY good luck with American and Japanese engines that had timing gears, I've yet to see any issues with them but again, they were engineered that way from the factory. The noise really has never been an issue(that I've noted) and they always seem to improve timing issues long term over even chain systems. But lets not go around debating this again since it really doesn't apply to any LR engines.

[MPi-KMS-72]

Noise is a problem. I had one of the early discos 15yrs ago.....they are noisy........in a Series? ultra noisy Before anyone mentions a fancy soundproofing kit........they are about the price that I would pay for a good engine:D........but you pays your money and takes your choice:D

Alex

Well the alternatives here are even more noisy. The Cummins 4bt is an astoundingly good diesel engine(not uncommon that they go 500,000 miles between rebuilds) but the noise will make your ears bleed. ;)

[MPi-KMS-72]

I diodn't want top name the manufacturer of timing gear retro fit kits for LR engines for fear of legal action, but their gears have a bad reputation, anyway.

Matt, if you have easy and cheap access to a 10J and don't mind being limited to 55-60 mph on flat open roads (less uphill or into wind), then go for it. It is a good engine. I didn't realise that the Discovery only started selling in the US once it had the 300Tdi. Fitting one of those would be the same as a 200, except for the routing of the down pipe needing relocation of the lhs chassis mount. Running one without the turbo and using SIII manifolds could be done, but as it has a higher turbo boost pressure and lower CR than the 200 to produce smoother running, I doubt it'd be much more powerful than a 10J.

We are screwed here, we didn't even get the 300tdi. we got the 3.9s and 4.0s, 4.2's and 4.6s. No diesels from LR here since... 1973.:eek:

So our options here are limited if you want diesel, it is either swap in a 2.25 diesel, or embark upon a lengthy conversion process and put in a MB diesel, VW Diesel, or change EVERYTHING out and put in a Cummins or other US diesel. 200 and 300TDis would have to be imported from the UK and parts support here is nil.
For whatever reason my 2.25 petrol engine is no scorcher either, it has its issues I suppose but I am lucky to get 65 oout of it on the flats as it is now, and with the 2 barrel Weber I am, returning something like 12MPG(us). It has gotten to the point that IF I am going to be stuck taking nice leisurly trips with the thing I might as well be getting better MPG. I can deal with slow but slow AND crappy MPG?

[MPi-KMS-72]

Sorry for the multiple replies, I keep thinking of more to say and time out before I can edit my posts...


In the US if you want to swap a series to diesel power you have 2 options- find a 2,25 diesel or embark upon a potentially complicated conversion. We really don't have many suitable diesels to choose from, no daihatsu diesels, no 200-300tdis, very few Japanese diesels. Essentially the only diesels that were imported and popular here were VW/Volvo sedan diesels and Mercedes Diesels. These are a dime a dozen more or less. The Mercedes diesel swap has become very popular lately but I don't see where it offers anything more than parts availability vs the LR 2.25 diesel.

I could use one of the US diesels, International 7.3l, GM 6.2-6.5l, or Cummins 4.3l 4bt. OBVOILSLY those are a tad big even by American standards. ;)

I could import a 200Tdi or a 300Tdi but it is expensive and I'd be generally stuck ordering spares from the UK- that would be ok for any planned maintenence but if anything goes when I am 60 miles from the nearest town in the Yukon...

[Big Sandy]

Tony, I have to say I have often wondered about the pic in your avatar..now we know where it was!

Looking forward to seeing more piccies of your exploits.

[tony109]

Big Sandy glad you noticed that.. The colour of the sky, the telegraph poles made a good picture and at the time it was quite surreal.
That picture is from my first trip to Russia and I had some BIG problems..
Crankcase compression was emptying half the sump every 60miles.
Dispite the fact the engine was on its last legs, that 2.1/4 kept me going.

Mpi-KMS a friend of mine has fitted a lovely 6.5 GMC N/a V8 diesel into his Discovery.. I like the engine, but the Discovery has suffered gearbox problems. A more compact diesel is the better choice. What about the peogueot 2.1 or 2.3 litre if you can find one or the real land rover unit

[alex]

Yeah more pics and stories of what can be done in a simple Landy against the elements.......please:D

Alex

[MPi-KMS-72]

Mpi-KMS a friend of mine has fitted a lovely 6.5 GMC N/a V8 diesel into his Discovery.. I like the engine, but the Discovery has suffered gearbox problems. A more compact diesel is the better choice. What about the peogueot 2.1 or 2.3 litre if you can find one or the real land rover unit


The 6.2l kind of has a checkered history here, what they DO have going for them is they are a dime a dozen used. I remember on ebay a year or so ago there was one lot of 300 or so for sale! The US army pulled them out of every hummer and replaced them with 6.5l Turbo diesels if they needed a new engine or not- so there is a glut of them available right now. But they are huge, pretty thirsty, and they would require another transmission at the minimum.

I don't know much about the Pug diesel- they WERE sold here in the 80's I've actually seen two in a junkyard so I know they are out there. How is their reputation over there?

[bob86]

I've got the pug 2.3 in my series one. Not tried it yet so cant tell you what its like. The 2.1 is mean't to be too under powered for a Land Rover and the 2.3 is susposed to be about the same as the 2 1/4 petrol. I've found people with experence of it seem to love them, but others I've spoken to say its not worth the effort putting one in.

[tony109]

On my first trip to Russia serious crankcase compression almost put a premature end to our trip. We had travelled from England, through France Holland, Denmark, Sweden into the Artic circle and into Finland without any problems. We found we had to wait for our Russian Visas in Finland, so while waiting we travelled through the Baltics then came back to collect them.
Now, with our Russian visas we were just short of the Russian border so I looked under the bonnet as usual, but this time everything was awash with black engine oil..... I dipped the sump and found it half full, so I topped it back up and worried. We continued our drive and after about 60 miles I stopped again for a look. Again the sump had half emptied itself and it was clear to see the Oil was being blown out the filler/breather.. Not funny.
There was no turning back now. I saw a junk yard and we all had a look around. I found a gallon bottle, a passenger found some perfect size tubing and with a bit of old brake pipe I made the perfect catch pot.

The tubing fitted tightly over the oil filler neck and fed into the bottle and was all held in place with the brake pipe..
Now we travelled across the boarder into St Petersburg. After 60 miles I stopped and found the catch pot was half full, so all I had to do was pour the contents back into the sump. This worked very well and we continued our drive without to many more problems, I just made sure to check the engine whenever I could but stopped without fail every 60 miles to glug whatever was in the pot, back into the sump.

[MPi-KMS-72]

Tony,

when you get the 109 all back together why not take a trip over here? Diesel is cheap. We sort of speak the same language. There is a LOT ot see here, I think it would be an ideal roadtrip. Heck if you check in with the US and Canadian LR enthusiasts I bet you'd have plenty of places to stop in and spend the nights at, we tend to be a somewhat closely knit group here since we are all wackos.

[tony109]

Tony,

when you get the 109 all back together why not take a trip over here? Diesel is cheap. We sort of speak the same language. There is a LOT ot see here, I think it would be an ideal roadtrip. Heck if you check in with the US and Canadian LR enthusiasts I bet you'd have plenty of places to stop in and spend the nights at, we tend to be a somewhat closely knit group here since we are all wackos.


Hey I would love to do that.. crossing the Bearing Straits could be a challenge though or I could fit floats, APGP style and try the Atlantic route.
A few years back my girlfriend and I got a cheap flight to Boston where we bought an 83 Pontiac bonneville for $800.. I had to blank off the EGR first and then we headed South. New Orleans, Texas, the Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Nevada...it was all great fun.. 5.3 liters of V8, colomb shift Auto. A big change from my Land Rover. Fuel was $2.50 ish a gallon but at 17 mpg, that soon got expensive. fuels now $3.30 ish isnt it?
We took the back roads whenever possible.. We tried to get to the (Sequoa?) national park to see the giant red woods.. But it had to snow and without snow chains we didnt stand a chance..
We drove through death valley, took small back tracks.. "you need a 4wd for that route" i was told, but it was infact quite tame and the car managed it fine. We droped in to see Elvis but he wasnt home, Vagas and things like that..
What i wanted to see was Moab where you guys do the rock crawling with the 200:1 modified jeeps etc, but you cant see everything..
I did enjoy it.
Land rover in the states must of had a hard time competing against the domestic products back in the day. Today of course to have an import appears to be the in thing..

[MPi-KMS-72]

Ha! a bonneville!

Gas is arounf $3.30, diesel right bnow is around $3.75 or so. It gets cheaper in the summer though (production capacity competes with home heating oil in the winter or so they tell us:rolleyes:)

Next year is the big 60th birthday party for LR. Here in North America the big party will be in Moab:
http://www.landrovernationalrally.com/

Here is a pic from this year's rally, and a youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6FMtOAvUnM

[MPi-KMS-72]

You could ship a 109 here RO-RO pretty cheap, maybe even book passage on the same ship, I know a few people have done that going over there.

check out the Birmabright Brotherhood- it is a network of US and Canadian Land Rover enthusiasts that can help with spares, lodging etc:
http://www.birmabrightbrotherhood.org/

[tony109]

If the link works, this is Half Safe. A journey that is hard to beat in terms of an acheivement.. Ben and his wife had already crossed the Atlantic, the smallest vessel ever to do so, at the time. He then travelled overland to the Pacific to fully circum navigate the globe. All this in an amphibious Jeep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Gqi-RlbO0

[toppa]

Missed this thread first time around, glad it was revived, an excellant thread, Tony, im jealous of your adventures!!!

Cheers

[tony109]

I removed the toughened glass from the wind screen and replaced it with Laminated.. A worth while move, where ever your travelling.. Security is also greatly improved.. I got my glass cut at a glazing factory and it cost only a few quid..