is land rover just another brick in the house that is 'rip off Britain'?

[nobber]

rip off Britain seems to be getting worse and worse. so much so that most industries need to rip people off in order to stay afloat.
as Britain becomes more and more expensive to live in people need to become more cunning and sly in order to survive.

'its not a car , its a way of life' Ive heard on more than one occasion but don't you think land rovers are pretty much way down the list on reliable motors? i do. the land rover way of life seems to be an expencive one.

what we have to ask our selves is , are land rovers designed to break down? or at least to have such a short shelf life between break downs?

Ive got a Nissan micra , its done 135k and its never let me down , its been driven thousands of miles with no engine oil in it , its had a rattly timing chain , yes its got a chain and not a stupid rubber belt, for 3 years , it starts first time every time and is more reliable than the seasons.

my land rover has broken down at least once every 3 months needing considerable work costing considerable amounts of money. if it wasn't for the fact that i can do the work my self id have given up years ago, land rover know how unreliable their vehicles are and do nothing about it. why? because people still buy them.

why do people buy them? is it as a status symbol? is it as a work horse?
id say the latter is the less likely.

so , is land rover a rip off?

what are your thoughts?

[educationalist]

I do not know about Land Rovers letting you down but I feel sorry for your Nissan micra,the poor thing no engine oil and all rattaling, and at Christmas time :):D:)

[nobber]

I do not know about Land Rovers letting you down but I feel sorry for your Nissan micra,the poor thing no engine oil and all rattaling, and at Christmas time :):D:)

its been through a lot the wee micra , its been up over the swiss alps , down through europe to greece without even a grumble , when we took the 90 on the same journey it broke down more than once.

im thinking what have the japanese got that we havent?
i mean , if landrovers were japanese would they be better vehicles because of the better quality engineering?

[skip2]

Jap jeep owners call us the "bonnet up club" and rightly so, but I don't think its down to rip off Britain, its lack of investment over many years in design and quality, a leftover from the bad old days of british leyand and the like.

The product on the whole is "good", but the compouant parts a joke, take for example Disco 1 door handles off leyand cars 20 years previous.

I've a 22 year old Ford, and a haynes manual for it, whole sections clean pages, gearbox section, trim, rear drive, electrics etc never looked at. While my landy haynes, dirtly pages every section cause I've had to read them doing work in the damm things.

[nobber]

so why cant land rover produce decent , reliable well built vehicles? after all they cost enough.
before i bought my 90 i was under the impression that land rovers were these indistructable , reliable tough vehicles as im sure most people new to land rovers would expect them to be.
i have to admit my 90 is pretty good off road but im begining to doubt wether or not its worth the effort.

[AJC]

Over the last 10 years I've had 2 Land Rovers (Disco 2 years and current Defender 8 years) and neither had/has let me down or broken down. A few items have been replaced which were mainly consumable ietems. On the whole I've found my LRs reliable.

AJ

[nobber]

Over the last 10 years I've had 2 Land Rovers (Disco 2 years and current Defender 8 years) and neither had/has let me down or broken down. A few items have been replaced which were mainly consumable ietems. On the whole I've found my LRs reliable.

AJ

you have had a defender for 8 years and its never broken down?
whats your maintenance schedule like?

[BigJim]

so why cant land rover produce decent , reliable well built vehicles? after all they cost enough.
before i bought my 90 i was under the impression that land rovers were these indistructable , reliable tough vehicles as im sure most people new to land rovers would expect them to be.
i have to admit my 90 is pretty good off road but im begining to doubt wether or not its worth the effort.


Over the last 10 years I've had 2 Land Rovers (Disco 2 years and current Defender 8 years) and neither had/has let me down or broken down. A few items have been replaced which were mainly consumable ietems. On the whole I've found my LRs reliable.

AJ

Until I read these 2 post I was going to say it was the old series vehicles that were reliable and easily maintained (and were responsible for the good reputation of landrovers). As they were replaced, the landcruiser stole their market in many parts of the world, and the 'modern' Disco and Defender found it difficult to compete. Now the choice of 4x4 is far greater, and any effort in producing a competitive product can only expect a smaller share of the market, wheras at one time landrover could expect the major share, so perhaps the invetsment in research and development isn't there.

[scruffytruck]

i don't reckon they're much worse than any other make to be honest - We've had five now and the only bad one was the first, an ex eleccy board 110 2.5na that was on it's last legs when I bought it. That one was expensive but then it was worn out. Since then I've had a 90 that did a clutch (after 135k) hey ho consumable part. A disco that likewise only cost me a clutch during the 30,000miles I put on it in a year, the missus rangey died thru tinworm at 15yrs old but other than that was 100% reliable. My series one has (so far) been fine little niggles but no more than I'd expect from a 55 year old vehicle

Meanwhile the company Mazda 6 went back to the dealer for a new fuel pump after 6000 miles and is currently smoking and rattling it's way to death at 88k. The Nissan doublecab work had was a pig (and having chatted with a load of the farmers round here apparently none of them will be buying another one).

oh there is another LR we had a Lightweight with a Ford Essex V6 - that was fine apart from the engine warping a head a month, can't really blame LR for that

[alex]

its been through a lot the wee micra , its been up over the swiss alps , down through europe to greece without even a grumble , when we took the 90 on the same journey it broke down more than once.

im thinking what have the japanese got that we havent?
i mean , if landrovers were japanese would they be better vehicles because of the better quality engineering?


You bet they would. People get so much into the habit of fixing and fettling Landys that they either get ****ed off or else just accept it. A lot of people think there are sooo good cos it`s what we all started out with and a lot have never changed. I can understand it though............you become so obsessed with buying and improving because you have too. Who doesn`t look forward to the box from Paddocks and opening it up like a kid:D.

The thing with Landys is The Club .......the camaraderie........the stuff available in this country....the four dedicated Mags.

Nobber you bought your Landy about the same time as I bought a 93 Patrol.

I spent two months fettling mine as it had only been driven by previous owner. Since I done that and got it to a decent level I aint put a spanner on it. It is 13 yrs old and sits on drive without a single drip from anywhere. It is used to tow for pleasure and work........ and is my DD.

Landys are over rated although I like the mechanical side of anything. That is where my interest lies mainly. I sometimes wonder that the reason there are four mags going is that the parts companys are the ones who supplement the mags with their ads for spares that are eaten up by enthuisiasts.

All that being said I have a project that I have a notion to rebuild........ser 11 109. Yes you can get ****ed off with em Nobber...........You just have to find reasons for owning one:D. If you put as much time and money into rebuilding a Jap or Merc you will have a better truck IMO.

Alex

Alex

[Rich_P]

The modern production Land Rovers as a whole (bar perhaps the Defender) suffer the typical modern day car problems (electronic etc.) and aren't really abnormally 'unreliable'. More like people appear to expect them to be more reliable than most cars for some odd reason, like you described Nobber.

It also must be remembered that the Land Rovers were also products of the Rover Group and later British Leyland, and you know what the other brands were like during that time. ;)

[AJC]

you have had a defender for 8 years and its never broken down?
whats your maintenance schedule like?Had it from new and it had LR services for first 2 years. Since then, I've done the servicing myself (apart from cam belt change) at the correct intervals. I probably do more oil changes than required. :rolleyes:

AJ

[TEMPL4R]

Most vehicles are reliable, it just depends on how they are driven and serviced.

We get loads in with brake dust on the wheels and warped and badly worn discs; bad driving.
Rattling engines, hydraulic tappets gummed up; Lack of oil changes.
Clutches worn and Dual masses knocking away; sitting at traffic lights with the clutch down instead of putting it out of gear.
Light clusters melting; sitting at traffic lights with foot on the brake instead of handbrake on.

Exhausts hanging off, tyres nearly bald, spark plugs seized in, oil filter elements that have completely collapsed in the housing, dents in the bodywork, mirrors broken, etc, etc

and that is on 3 and 4 year old stuff, not old wrecks.

People don't service or look after vehicles. Some spend so much on the finance to buy it, they don't include the service and consumables cost ( tyres, etc) and can't afford things when they break.

We do a lot of Taxis, they cover phenominal mileages, but we change oil and filters every couple of weeks, some get through more brake pads than others, but that is down to driving styles.

Chris

[nobber]

ok ok buuuut , and i want this from the egsperts, is a landy more likley to drive into the shop than a land cruiser?

toyota vs land rover.

come on guys , put your landy feelings behind you and think about it.

[ncooper]

There is no question that the Micra is a good little car and also no question that it won't run with no engine oil in it.
The only one I ever worked on belonged to a friend who had broken down on the way to work,flattened the battery trying to restart it and it turned out the timing belt had snapped.6 bent valves but not much else.

But,it's a simple bit of kit (his B reg one).Even the first Land Rovers were more complex than a Micra and so more to go wrong.Add to that the utter neglect that Templ4r refers to and it should be no surprise that vehicles go wrong.

When you read this forum,not many of us have bought new,so the vehicle history is never fully known."Full service history" doesn't mean the car has been well looked after,just that the book is full of stamps.
For example,we had a Range Rover on which the previous owners had spent thousands on main dealer servicing.
The tailgate lock was so well seized that you couldn't even get the key to go into the lock and the central locking mechanism had self destructed,trying to turn the seized barrel.

Yes,the British motor industry has commited suicide and we are trying to keep some of their not very well made or designed vehicles going and it can be expensive but no more so than any other manufacturer.My employers have just paid £160 each for two gearchange cables for my Volvo truck,including fitting and a callout charge £650.

I think you have lifted the lid of a can of worms.Personally I like Land Rover because they can always be recognised for what they are,unlike most cars which look the same but have different badges.
Even Mercedes and BMW have gone euro.
I had a BMW 320 estate,fabulous car,reliable,economical and DULL.
Swapped it for my red Discovery.At least I can see where I am going and find it in a car park.
Better still,I've not yet seen two Series 1's in the same town,let alone car park.

Happy Christmas,

Nick.

[AJC]

.......is a landy more likley to drive into the shop than a land cruiser?You after the best 'ram raiding' vehicle Nobber? :D

AJ

[nobber]

a landrover will ram any shop on the high street

















but only a toyota will raid it.:)

[alex]

It`s a good point that Nick makes about some cars being dull. Oldish Alfas suffer a lot of the problems of Landys..rust crap electrics ..not so good ancilleries. If you want a car for work....get a
Toyota Carina. For a hobby car an Alfa :D

Alex

[bilge rat]

on me 3rd disco now , and boy the times ive said right thats it i ve had it with them. but at the end of the day i do love me discos. ive too thought about the jap route but in my experience yes there more reliable but the parts are dear and not always easy to get. compair with a landy that parts are cheap and easy to source. but you need them more often .iff i had to pay someone to work on them id think different so i do wonder. the other thing is the shows . the enthusiast the forums and help you get from them. i know what you mean but think ill stick with me landys. alan.....

[timbott]

If you want a car for work....get a
Toyota Carina

My Dad has an Avensis and it is a superb car for doing what it sez on the tin. I would have one to complement the washing machine and the freezer - they do a job:)

Now us lot are obviously enthusiasts so we persevere with things from the West Midlands:rolleyes:

I must admit, I love series trucks, but if I was in the market for a newish 4x4 (which I ain't) it wouldn't be a Land Rover:o

cheers, Tim

[bahamarover]

The reason we've got two landies in the bahamas is the state of the roads and the interchangeability of parts...spares cost an arm and a leg in the USA and freight from UK is a killer...but one set of spares for both vehicles is a real bonus.......but we did buy a 1990 and 92 vehicles as after 300tdi the spare parts were not so interchangeable.....wife loves hers...but she don't work on it.....I DO!!!!......compared to some vehicles i've owned,they are high maintenance...the plus side is i can get the local welder/blacksmith to manufacture bits
and they blend right in!!!!!!..............keith

[Snagger]

The only two failures my 109 suffered in the 10 years before the rebuild were the one of the wires coming off the back of the ignition switch, which had probably been disturbed a long time before during the diesel conversion and had eventually vibrated loose, and the synchro hub failing in the gearbox, locking out 3rd and 4th.

In the two years I had the Cavalier, the sunroof jammed, all the windows failed (one by one, and sometimes open), the central locking failed, the heater packed up, the thermostat went, the clutch cable and hand brake cable snapped, the thermostat failed, the head gasket failed catastrophically (unrelated), the rear brakes seized partially on, the catalytic converter desintegrated, the alternator packed up... not to mention the problems with the dampers, the pull on the steering, rotten sills, electric aerial, two stereos blowing up... and it was half the age of the 109.

Old Land Rovers seem unreliable because they are old, but other vehicles of their age would have been scrapped already. New Land Rovers eem unreliable because they're complex (too complex, IMHO), and have much to go wrong - Mercs and Jags have their problems too.

LR quality needs to improve, but it is steadily getting better already.

[justMike]

Are Landies reliable..?? Well... how do you judge a 26 year old truck that's still walkin the walk... how many Micra's the same age can make the same claim?

I reckon that if you're gonna judge a Landie, then judge it against the designed role it meant to fill... can it go just about anywhere on its own steam? Do you have a fighting chance of being able to fix it yourself in the middle of nowhere with little more than a basic toolkit and sensible spares? In a shunt are you more likely to walk away rather than fill a body bag..??


If I were to start nit pickin, I'd need the full word count on at least 6 posts to cover just my history owning HRH; gawd knows I've put in the hands on hours on her... but that doesn't make her any less capable. Granted, she's only as reliable as the stuff she was built with, and when that stuff is invariably of pi$$ poor quality then it's a no brainer that you're gonna have problems down the line... But the thing is, it doesn't matter what the prob is, it's always a BASIC problem... easily lashed up, easily replaced, easily redesigned to improve the safety, quality and reliability... And gawd knows they're adaptable... Ever see 2 identical Series rigs... ever...?? Last time I did they were painted Nato green... Name any old piece of jap cr@p that's possible to upgrade using parts off the only just supersceded production line?

Lately though, things have changed; with the current generation it strikes me that Land Rover have lost sight of what the original design brief was, lost sight of why they were the best at what they did and why they enjoyed brand loyalty for so long... Thesedays the current generation are simply computers built into an all wheel drive box; pity help ya if anything craps out. Defenders are trying to fill the role that Disco's were designed for... Disco's are trying to fill the role Rangie's used to have.... I'm still trying to figure out wtf the new generation Rangie's supposed to be other than a grossly overpriced, overly complicated shopping car... All that while the original Landrover market has largely been abandoned. As Ford pushes ever closer to all steel bodies rather than traditional aluminium, the chances are there simply won't BE a vehicle left to explore the long term reliability of engine management systems; the tin worm will have done it a mortal blow long before then (if the bodies share the same rust protection as the chassis that is).

At one time or another, I've driven most of the Jap alternatives out there, and give them their due, each one had some noteworthy strengths, but there's not a one of em that'd tempt me to put my ass in hoc to go buy one... They haven't established a good enough track record yet for one thing, and with their turnover in model upgrades, they're never likely to either...

[MPi-KMS-72]

rip off Britain seems to be getting worse and worse. so much so that most industries need to rip people off in order to stay afloat.
as Britain becomes more and more expensive to live in people need to become more cunning and sly in order to survive.


What sort of warrantee does LR offer you over there?
http://www.jeep.com/en/lifetime_powertrain_warranty/

(too bad Chrysler is "operationally bankrupt") ;)

LR has its quality perception issues here too. Maybe things will be different under Indian ownership?

[MPi-KMS-72]

Sorry the above graph was 2006's here is '07 & '05. I don't really agree with J.D. Power's methodology but these do highlight the image problem thet Land Rover suffers here when it comes to quality. :eek:

[K&S]

Some interesting points have been highlighted. I think Land Rovers owners fall into a high emotion group because there is definitely a brotherhood (and to be PC sisterhood) to owning a Land Rover that does not exist with other vehicles. They do get under your skin. As has been rightly said many of these vehicles are not new when bought and one does indeed not know how they were cared for previously. But then compare this with the volume of oldish Land Rovers around against other vehicles. I tend to believe they are kept going longer than most other makes and this I reckon comes down to the emotional factor; we want to keep them going. They are bought as projects or because they can be picked up relatively cheap and then re-built.

I have not owned a newer Land Rover than my 1969 series IIa. My repairs on this vehicle are less than what I genuinely would expect a 39 year old vehicle to have. Fortunately spares are cheap also for this vehicle.

Now onto Japanese manufacturers. Their vehicles in my opinion are bland un-exciting vehicles. However they usually have great reliability. I've had a few Toyotas over the years and have found them to be extremely reliable. In fact in 1985 I bought a 1979 Toyota Cressida station wagon from a friend who had bought it new. That vehicle has NEVER leaked a drop of oil. About the only things replaced have been consumables like petrol pump, alternator parts and globes. The engine has never been opened. The automatic gearbox has showed signs since about 1991 of packing up but it never has. We gave the car to a needy person but have kept it in our name to save the hassle of roadworthy and so we know how it continues. The current "owner" has very little money to maintain it but it just keeps on going.

My other Toyotas have been the same. My 2002 Ford Fiesta :eek: . Don't get me started on reliability of that car. It has only once broken down BUT the expensive things that break and then the replaced items break and then break again and then the parts people say "Oh but those parts always break". Then I say to them the salesman kindly forgot to mention when he sold it that those parts always fail. Three indicator units at R900 each. Three heater control motors at R380 each. Brake vacuum servo, R2500. Two thermostats and housing because its made of plastic and disintegrates when touched at R770 each.

If I were to buy a Defender or Discovery I must say I would only buy it from new because I would be concerned about the maintenance of the vehicle by the previous owner. However I need not worry about that because unless I win the Lotto I would never have that kind of money. Not that I can afford a used one anyway :rolleyes: .

I definitely think that modern electronics and gadgets are also part of the problem with reliability of vehicles these days. The vehicles I've referred to as being reliable, my series, the Toyotas, have all been basic mechanical vehicles. None of them need to be plugged into a machine. The horror stories my son-in-law tells me about the BMWs that pass through the dealership where he works means that it is not just Land Rovers that are unreliable. There are many that require new engines and gearboxes very early in their life. A few years ago they were replacing turbos like you and I have breakfasts.

Moral of all this? Basic is best. Maybe I am a technophobe ;) .

[Jim Franklin]

Those JD Power graphs are misleading. They only represent the opinions of those who have responded and are unlikely to be a true reflection of the the Industry as a whole.

Many people who bought a Land Rover and took part in the survey likely own a D3 or more likely the Freelander. Those with Range Rovers are unlikely to respond and those that do will be a very small percentage of the number sold (figures that JD Power never publishes).

Land Rovers have their problems, poor build quality plagued the brand for several decades, but that is the English way..build it cheap and cheerful and hope it works! It is not acceptable, but a fact of life. I have known people buy very expensive cars and have nothing but trouble with them.

Another point with the JD Power survey is that it only counts reported problems overall, it does not seperate them into the type of the problem reported. Some problems are more serious than others. Build quality of the interior people notice immediatly, and this is the majority of complaints about certain brands, people expect Bentley quality at Hyundi prices!. The Merc ML class was a bag of shiite when first released in the UK. Built in the US the quality made Land Rover look king of the hill, but people still bought them because of the badge and Mercedes dealt with the issues.

The real failing of Land Rover is not that problems exist, but that they seem to fail to address them once identified. Things are better now than for many years, but that is only due to the input of Ford. There needs to be an attitude sea change at Land Rover. Bring in a new broom and sweep away the old cobwebs and bring in shiny new people to run the show.

Land Rover is an iconic brand and it deserves the loyalty of it's fans and customers alike, but equally those fans and customers deserve and warrant the respect of the Brand too, without them, the Land Rover would be a footnote in motoring history.

Being harsh with Land Rover is unfair unless you have a brand new machine. If it's second hand then many of the problems may be attributable to the previous keeper(s) or simply wear and tear. My Disco has issues, but it has covered almost 160,000 miles now so it would be wrong to berate Land Rover for any mechanical failings it had now..it was used and abused by the previous keeper, a hard working farmer in Sussex..things will break.

[alex]

Are Landies reliable..?? Well... how do you judge a 26 year old truck that's still walkin the walk... how many Micra's the same age can make the same claim?

I reckon that if you're gonna judge a Landie, then judge it against the designed role it meant to fill... can it go just about anywhere on its own steam? Do you have a fighting chance of being able to fix it yourself in the middle of nowhere with little more than a basic toolkit and sensible spares? In a shunt are you more likely to walk away rather than fill a body bag..??


If I were to start nit pickin, I'd need the full word count on at least 6 posts to cover just my history owning HRH; gawd knows I've put in the hands on hours on her... but that doesn't make her any less capable. Granted, she's only as reliable as the stuff she was built with, and when that stuff is invariably of pi$$ poor quality then it's a no brainer that you're gonna have problems down the line... But the thing is, it doesn't matter what the prob is, it's always a BASIC problem... easily lashed up, easily replaced, easily redesigned to improve the safety, quality and reliability... And gawd knows they're adaptable... Ever see 2 identical Series rigs... ever...?? Last time I did they were painted Nato green... Name any old piece of jap cr@p that's possible to upgrade using parts off the only just supersceded production line?

Lately though, things have changed; with the current generation it strikes me that Land Rover have lost sight of what the original design brief was, lost sight of why they were the best at what they did and why they enjoyed brand loyalty for so long... Thesedays the current generation are simply computers built into an all wheel drive box; pity help ya if anything craps out. Defenders are trying to fill the role that Disco's were designed for... Disco's are trying to fill the role Rangie's used to have.... I'm still trying to figure out wtf the new generation Rangie's supposed to be other than a grossly overpriced, overly complicated shopping car... All that while the original Landrover market has largely been abandoned. As Ford pushes ever closer to all steel bodies rather than traditional aluminium, the chances are there simply won't BE a vehicle left to explore the long term reliability of engine management systems; the tin worm will have done it a mortal blow long before then (if the bodies share the same rust protection as the chassis that is).

At one time or another, I've driven most of the Jap alternatives out there, and give them their due, each one had some noteworthy strengths, but there's not a one of em that'd tempt me to put my ass in hoc to go buy one... They haven't established a good enough track record yet for one thing, and with their turnover in model upgrades, they're never likely to either...

Not disagreeing with your post in particular Mike but just some alternative thoughts to the ones you have mentioned.

Series vehicles have been hit in a shunt where the body was removed with occupants and separated a good distance with tragic results.

You may be surprised at Patrol track record as they been made since early fifties with only three basic changes...same as Landrover. The one I drive is as simple as your truck:)

And the mention of 26 year old Landy. What part of it is 26 yrs old?:D

I`m in agreement with the pro Landy thing. I mean...how do you explain an Obsession?..........you don`t:D. Even like the Chav with his Corsa......it`s what you want to be seen driving in?

Alex

[ncooper]

The real failing of Land Rover is not that problems exist, but that they seem to fail to address them once identified. Things are better now than for many years, but that is only due to the input of Ford.

I agree with most of what you say,but I'm not sure the above is universally correct.
In my opinion,the Discovery 2 is the best vehicle they have produced recently.We had a Discovery 1 and the 2 addressed virtually all its imperfections.

ie:Noisy agricultural (but otherwise very good) engine...replaced with smooth,quiet more powerful one.
Rust trap inside the back doors,(bottom rear)...designed out.
Rear floor prone to rot...not any more.
Poor headlights...replaced with ones which emit light enough to see with.
Rear lights in the bumper...no longer used, now you can be seen from behind
Curl up dashboard...new materials used.
Pill box windscreen...height added,now you can see traffic lights from the front of the queue
Seven seater now has forward facing rearmost seats,effective seatbelts and head restraints.
Purpose made door handles,steering column switches,wipers etc,no longer bootlegged from1970's cars.
Body panels which do actually fit together.
Traction control added.
No doubt loads of other detail,I read that only the back door skin will fit both vehicles.
Then another 100 or so changes to the "facelift" model,including headlights which really are very good.
All,I believe,done under BMW ownership.

Just when they had got it right...discontinued.:(
By Ford?

Nick.

[Paul Humphreys]

Funny as this subject has come up.

See my post, I have decided to leave the "land rover life":eek: I will still have a 4x4, maybe 2;). But more than likely not LRs. I have landrovers since I was 19 on and off. But have not been without one for the last 10 years or so.

I do service my 110 well, but I do "use" it well. I have only ever not driven it home once, when the transfer box lost drive.

Other than service parts, but what do you call service parts on a LR? I add wheel bearings, CVs, and stub axles as service parts. I have spent about £1000 in the last 12 month on "service parts".

But I changed jobs last May. Now I need a good car for work and a good second car as a backup. The LR does not stand up to that, part of the reason is the way it is "used".

I have a friend who runs a Landcruiser as a offroad car and main car. He has only broke 1 CV in about 7 years and rund 36" simex tyres.

Paul

[bahamarover]

i think all the posts have something to them,but the landrover is a hobby/cult/club vehicle and the newer ones from BMW ownership onwards are getting progressively more unfixable,it's to early to say but how many BMW and Ford derived landrovers are going to be around in 25 yrs? and if they go to all steel,then rust is going to be the deciding factor,not mechanical reliability
...lets face it santana..in all honesty have shown landrover how to build their own vehicles,
it's a damning fact when a foriegn factory builds what is essentially your own vehicle BETTER than you do...and iron out a lot of the little niggles at the same time, i love my landys but my time could be better spent driving them instead of fettling them,on the latest LR's the electrical problems that face all cars over about seven yrs old haven't started to exhibit themselves yet
and i'm not talking engine,i'm talking electric windows,seats,instruments etc...the fullness of time will see the Series vehicles still going and the newer landrovers falling by the wayside,
LR have forgotten the bottom line......RELIABILITY......the KISS concept works..its been tried and tested...if i personally wanted an SUV or a crossover..thats what i would have bought,but i needed a vehicle to run on very bad roads and be driven off road at least three days out of seven..and be reliable......lets face it ford have told LR that they need to sell more units
so they have to make it more acceptable to the mainstream...so the product becomes watered down...after all,we as hardcore LR owners are fractions of a per cent in units sold
most NEVER go off road,so the emphasis goes towards a road orientated vehicle,at the cost of other attributes,comfort for mum running junior to school sells more units than a wash through interior...it's the thin end of the wedge...love your landy..i think it's a dying breed
and unfortunately we really don't figure in the economics of its success anymore,cars and SUV's are what will keep the company afloat,and anyone who buys LR to make it viable at the investment cost will go for units sold of the MOST POPULAR models worldwide...
and thats not the defender.........keith

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with most of what you say,but I'm not sure the above is universally correct.
In my opinion,the Discovery 2 is the best vehicle they have produced recently.We had a Discovery 1 and the 2 addressed virtually all its imperfections.

{snip}

All,I believe,done under BMW ownership.

Just when they had got it right...discontinued.:(
By Ford?

Nick.

Nick, that are valid observations, and from driving one I do agree with your points regarding the difference between my 300TDi and the DII series. However I would point out that the DII is very much more of a "car" than an offroad workhorse. Yes the DII is a very fine vehicle and they did address many issues that should never have been their originally, but adding an ECU to the engine only meant that taking them into the wilderness presents hazards that simply do not exist with the DI or similar "simpler" models.

I am not a mechanic, but I can work on my engine as it is simple, I understand enought to start me off and am learning as I go. I would not even attemtp to mess about with an engine controlled by an ECU, it's too easy to really stuff up and disable the vehicle. The Newe DIII is even worse, granted it's not as bad as my Volvo, which needs a team from NASA to sort out, but it's getting there.

Regarding BMW..less said the better, they milked the company then got shot of it and kept the rights to the Mini..OK I accept the Mini was sound business and they did an excellent job, but why did they not commit that effort to the Land Rover brand and truly turn it back into the world leader it once was..That would be the easiest thing for BMW to have done, but all they were after with Rover Group was asset stripping.

Ford...will they, won't they...jesus it's turning Land Rover into an episode of East Enders..what a farce.

[ncooper]

Nick, that are valid observations, and from driving one I do agree with your points regarding the difference between my 300TDi and the DII series. However I would point out that the DII is very much more of a "car" than an offroad workhorse. Yes the DII is a very fine vehicle and they did address many issues that should never have been their originally, but adding an ECU to the engine only meant that taking them into the wilderness presents hazards that simply do not exist with the DI or similar "simpler" models.


I agree with you entirely. the reason I like the Discovery 2 so much is that in one vehicle you have a luxury car which would grace anyone's drive,a van which will carry a lot of weight and a tractor which will pull almost anything.It will do this on or off the road.

I don't think they had a choice with the engine management,there are emission targets to be met and I don't think mechanically controlled diesels can reach them. The engine itself is no harder to work on than any other,the basic principals are the same whether managed by a computer or mechanically.

I still love to drive the Series 1 and indeed did so all summer,in preference to the Discovery.
For purely practical reasons,ie.not wanting to have it encrusted in salt, I'm not using it now but it will be out again come spring.

Nick.

[MPi-KMS-72]

Those JD Power graphs are misleading. They only represent the opinions of those who have responded and are unlikely to be a true reflection of the the Industry as a whole.

Many people who bought a Land Rover and took part in the survey likely own a D3 or more likely the Freelander. Those with Range Rovers are unlikely to respond and those that do will be a very small percentage of the number sold (figures that JD Power never publishes)...


The Freelander is largely responsible for the #s above, also take into consideration that we don't get any Defenders and we ONLY get gasoline engines. The methodology for J. D. Power's customer satisfaction survey is listed on thir site for those who are curious.

[Rage Rover]

There was a guy at work with me who always wanted a Land Rover and decided to get a Freelander to fulfill one of his lifelong dreams . 1 week later he needs a new engine and some other less serious ( :rolleyes:) things had gone completely wrong . Result being he'll never buy another .
My brother in law bought an older disco and at MOT discovered that the boot floor and most of the back end was no longer there :(. Result being one motor scrapped and he'll never buy another .
New engine for your 4.6 rangie after 50 k - "that will be 7 grand sir - they don't last long you understand " . A lot of people have had this happen .

Maybe it's unfair to slate Land Rover , i have a 1972 Series and it has become an all consuming hobby - there is always something needing done but it keeps me busy and it's my 2nd car .I can always get another axle 2nd hand or an ex mod gearbox to keep it going .It's over 30 years old so i'm not expecting it to be reliable .
I drive a Volvo that in 85 thousand miles has never let me down ( now has 135 thousand ) . Starts 1st turn of the key even after being left regularly untouched for 3 weeks .I've thrashed it mercilously and towed huge trailers with blatant disregard for the cars mechanics .I've replaced a wheel bearing , a track rod end and the electric window switch went on the bing - but that's all - no exhausts / radiators/drive shafts/steering racks/pumps or anything .It shows no signs of rust or corrosion despite being over 10 years old . Ok so it's not apples for apples but that's what modern motoring should be like ?.

[Mr Teddy Bear]

Perhap's Tata Motors wont be such a bad thing after all then, if they [Tata], produce a proper range of Utility Vehicles for the Indian subcontinent ? As long as their not tuned to run on parifin!
Oh and dont resemble the offering that Rover served up as a Metro replacement:(

[TEMPL4R]

There was a guy at work with me who always wanted a......
That is fairly common with a lot of makes RR. People want something and often buy the first one they see. Subarus are a similar thing, most have been well thrashed. You need to get a proper opinion before laying out the cash.

This year I have rebuilt a Saab, a Galaxy, a Subaru, an MR2 and countless P38 V8s and K series 1.8s because the Salesmen do a deal and don't come for an opinion ( mainly the reason it's being traded in) and it's Fu**ed. plus clutches, gearboxes, diffs, all need a proper test drive and the cost taking away from the trade in price before the deal is done.

I forget how many times people ask about such and such a motor, "Don't get one of those because they are prone to ( fill in answer here) ", you guessed it, they buy one, then spend thier time moaning about what a bad car it is. Most makes have their dogs and most have problems as they age, add to that the lack of maintenance and it gets worse.

Chris

[TEMPL4R]

Tata use old pattern Peugeot engines, so the technological jump would help them immensly.
I'm still awaiting a Chinese Rover to see what they have done to them, if anything.

Chris

[bahamarover]

probably the best car my dad had was the early version of the vauxhall cavalier..not built by vauxhall but by opel....great car,fast stopped when it was meant to,no clunking or banging
he changed it every three years....until he bought one made at vauxhall......what a dog...
kept it a year...went to nissan.......'nough said really!!!!!.....keith

[TEMPL4R]

Best car I had was a 1990 Ford Granada 2.9. Ghia. Never let me down.

Chris

[alex]

German Built?

Alex

[TEMPL4R]

Yes, if it had the leather it would have been a Scorpio or Ghia X.

Chris ( I liked Fords then)

[Rage Rover]

That is fairly common with a lot of makes RR. People want something and often buy the first one they see. Chris

Yep Chris i take your point and maybe i was a bit harsh - other makes as well as Land Rover have their faults aplenty .My Wife's brand new Honda Civic has been back for some minor gremlins ( petrol flap not opening ) and has had 2 re calls :(.

My old VW Scirocco i thought was excellent but now i think about it I sold it for pennies cos there was so much wrong with it :o.My last Volvo was an old 240 - and despite having to wear a Deer Stalker and smoke a pipe to drive it i still think it was the best car i've had :eek: :).

Don't get me started on MK3 Escorts ......:eek:

[alex]

Was it a Torslander Gordon? Civics aint just what they were since being built in Uk. Nissan Micras have Renault parts now and have suffered more warranty work than ever.

There`s no doubt a lot of Landys give good use. Whether good bad indifferent or what ...they are an experience. I recently asked an OZZ forum why they stuck with Landys rather than the Toyota /Nissan prevalence.

Most basically said the same as the Pro Landys on our forum. The uniqueness and charachter etc etc. Although they admitted the glitches they still did big miles and big trips....and that`s what matters isn`t it?

Alex

[bahamarover]

trouble is Alex iit's getting like a military helicopter when it comes to hours of maintenance per miles run...its getting better now but navy helo's used to be4-8 hours of maintenance per hour flown...and unfortunately its getting that way with some vehicles,now you go back 25 years to low horsepower,lower revving cars and n/a diesels and they were by and large a lot more trouble free than todays cars. i had a rover P6 2000sc 0-60...today all the panels were bolt on
everything was driver maintainable (the rear inboard discs were a pain in the rectum).and it just went and went and went...."gets his rose tinted glasses out"...your every day runabout cars were just more reliable and easier to fix..it wasn't until you got into the "sportier" models like the stag,dolomite etc that problems started to appear..even the hillman imp was pretty good in standard form.......keith

[alex]

Yeah you`re right Keith...Little Imp with it`s Coventry Climax beginnings....loved em. Yes and a 68 P6 20O0SC. It did 34 on a run. Could have done with ABS, the brakes would lock the wheels quickly. I used to practise my Cadence braking on that one:D Have the young guys fell asleep yet? Don`t worry Old Chis will still be cocking an ear:D His wife only has to shout Gardner Diesel to get him up in the morning:D

Alex

[treebloke]

Well its all a matter of choice but it does help if you have a good set of spanners and a bit of spare time.

I find the more I use mine for what its was built for for, work, the less it likes it.

Some times I wonder if Land Rover actually do any research. Like door handles for instance, how pockets have I ripped getting in and as far as I know there is no after market solution to that stupid catch that sticks out.

I could go on and on.

Makes me wonder why I love em so much.

[Rage Rover]

Alex - get a grip here ! Hillman Imp by jove - you'll be telling me the head gaskets and cooling system were made by NASA next :D - or was that the STAG ? ;) .

I think treebloke , you may have a point - it's a labour of love and completely illogical ;).

[alex]

Yeah Imps had a few issues . Stag had top end problems. There is a mod for those issues now........long after a lotta guys put 2.5pi Triumphs in as a replacement for V8. I think it`s like a fibreglass boat and a wooden one.

One is little maintenance and the other is a lot. I once asked an Islander why he got rid of his glass boat and went back to Larch on Oak

" Ach" he says "the glass boat was good but it chust had no soul":D

Alex

[Rage Rover]

Aye Alex that's maybe right enough :) . Don't know if my landy has any soul left the amount of things i've said to it in disgust - it'll be getting taken away to a home at this rate :D.

[AJC]

Over the last 10 years I've had 2 Land Rovers (Disco 2 years and current Defender 8 years) and neither had/has let me down or broken down. A few items have been replaced which were mainly consumable ietems. On the whole I've found my LRs reliable.

AJI take it all back. Looks like my gearbox may be knackered (although still drivable :rolleyes:)!! :(

AJ

[MPi-KMS-72]

I take it all back. Looks like my gearbox may be knackered (although still drivable :rolleyes:)!! :(

AJ


Aaaak! You should have known better! You jinxed yourself there!!;) Must be you didn't knock on wood.

[Laninlandy]

I think it is the luck of the draw .

(300 tdi 90)

In the 3 years I have owned mine it only ever had to to the garage to get a gearbox problem sorted .
It has never broken down since and only has only really ever needed parts for servicing . The fuel lift pump failed , that cost all of about £15 to replace.
I service it every 6 months or 6000 miles . It always ends up being on the 6 month ,in between services it is lucky to touch 3 k .But the oil and filters still get changed .
It's about to go in the garage for a clutch , I beleive the one currently in it is the original one , just about to knock in 115k ..

It's been good and not the problem child I was expecting ..

All the same I,am pretty much finished with it now and will be selling it for a car , 100% comfort issues .
Pretty tired of the noisy cold driving ;)

[AJC]

Aaaak! You should have known better! You jinxed yourself there!!;) Must be you didn't knock on wood.:D You could be right, I didn't!!

AJ

[alex]

We forgive you AJ......:D

Alex