Oil Addatives ?

[pop-rivet]

Has anyone had experience of using in Series Vehicles ? Do they have a worthwhile benefit ? I know they used to do (or still may) STP, Molyslip etc but are they any good long term or do they cause more problems than they cure ? :eek:

Thinking of using some but would appreciate any personal views. :)

[TBM]

I've used Ametech Engine Restore in all my vehicles. I'd like to think they run a little smoother and quieter, but that may just be the placebo effect based on the cost!

Absolutely no adverse effects apart from my wallet.

[pop-rivet]

Thanks for that, I found this article after posting on forum

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/snakeoil.htm

Wondering if they may be best in Gearboxes & axles. Anyone else got experience of them ?

[RUXY]

Interesting article but it is a pity they did not investigate such as MOLY (molybdenum Disulphide) - Uncertain how good the engine version is.
For gearboxes it seems to have a good reputation AFAIK Moly and phosphorus are the only known chemicals that can bring about a change of state of the surface of steel.
MOLY / K S Paul / Rocol ASP (anti-scuff paste has a very good reputation).

I did one read the only thing that MoS2 does not like is high shaft speeds but that was turbine speeds, possibly the only barrier lubricant is this ground up rock ;)

[Henk Coetzee]

Snake oil (IMHO). Big oil companies put a lot of effort and money into getting oils that fulfill various requirements (ACEA, manufacturers etc.), without adding stuff.

[Richie_asg1]

Snake oil (IMHO). Big oil companies put a lot of effort and money into getting oils that fulfill various requirements (ACEA, manufacturers etc.), without adding stuff.

I'll wade in here and disagree because of one thing.......Economics.

Back in the 1950's, the head of BP was saying that due to the advancements of car engine design, he was expecting 80MPG within a few years. This never happened.

Why?

Why make a product that actually uses less of your product to function?

The Oil industry and car manufacturers have been in bed with each other since Henry Diesel invented an engine that ran on peanut oil. Modern diesels cannot. - They only take Refined mineral diesel.

So, in essence (pardon the french pun) car manufacturers actually want oils that damage vehicles in the long run. - At least on a balance sheet.

This is why Land Rovers are still around, and old Fiesta's arn't.

Remember the ceramic engine anyone?

Prototyped, but never developed because it lasted too long.

So in answer to your question, if you want the cylinders to last longer, use Molybdenum in whatever form you want.
This goes for gearbox oil too. ASP mixed with mineral oil will be far cheaper than the same thing in a 5% syringe - but mix well before introducing.

[RUXY]

MoS2 is one of the best proven reinforcements to lubricants to solve engineering problems at both high and low temperatures + heavy loading, as used by all the oil majors and specialist lubricant manufacturers.
Probably the CV joint today would not be so reliable as it is today without MoS2 being specified.
Firms such as KS Paul and Rocol certainly are not cowboy oil snakes.
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Many oils already contain some - the question is are you prepared to pay extra for belt and braces.
I re-charge my Fairey OD drive member splines every 10,000 miles with ASP - I have 4 different copies of Fairey Instructions and only one mentions the use of ASP (after this version they included a small container with some in) . At £200 to renew a mainshaft and drive member for a blob of what is known to work - why take the risk.

[Henk Coetzee]

I still tend to disagree. There are most certainly places where MoS2 is a correct and specified lubricant and in these places we all use a specialised oil/grease containing MoS2. It's just that certain lubricants are designed to do specific things in specific places and making our own mixture because we like the idea isn't necessarily the best idea around.

As for oils being designed to reduce the lifespan of engines, the motor and oil industries are walking a difficult tightrope here. Sure you don't want your product to last forever so that you keep on selling new ones but at the same time, many manufacturers trade on a reputation of building engines that "last forever". I think that what is more to the point here is the way in which maintenance plans have led to longer service intervals, which will lead to faster engine wear but save the manufacturer money during the warranty period.

Richie used the example of the Fiesta. SWMBO has a Ford Ikon - an Indian designed South African Fiesta with a boot, made out of Brazilian parts. A while back I was looking for some info on it to check something and found that the car is designed for a life of 250,000km. Part of this design means that Ford (in their infinite wisdom) have decided that the gearbox doesn't need a drain plug.

At this point I'd like to ask a question. I have been told to always use the same oil when changing. Since my mechanic uses it, I use Shell Rimula X. I think it has something to do with establishing and maintaining a consistent wear trend in the engine. Anyone have any ideas about this?

Henk

[RUXY]

Having worked as a Rotating Equipment Field Engineer during the 80 to 90's for some of the major oil companies what you say to a certain extent is correct. However I have known where Shell have specified Mobil lubricants and in fact authorized certain additives where they are known to perform better for difficult circumstances.
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Returning to Land Rovers - the S3 Archilles heel to me is the gearbox - basically a taken Rover car gearbox @ 1948 and slipped into a S1 about the weight of WW2 era Jeep. Given synchro on 3 rd & 4th about 1970 but taking the load of a vehicle more than twice the original weight. This is why I use Molyslip for gearboxes and at the same time slip some in the diffs. For engines - I just use a good API spec. 20W/50 at a cheap price and change it with filter often.

[pop-rivet]

Well as it happens its the Gearbox I was more interested in. :eek:
With the change in temp it baulks on selecting 1st once warm. At the moment I am using, as its all I could get EP80W90. But wonder if straight EP90 would be best (as recomended) but not many suppliers have it stocked.
When cold its fine (as is clutch so its not that) its amazing that just the few degrees in temp rise could produce this difference in gear selection. :rolleyes:
Thats why I wanted to know about addatives as a cure or to assist in easier selection of 1st. Else its drain & change to straight EP90 ? ;)

[RUXY]

I use EP 80W/90 to get the oil moving quicker in winter to help lubrication and changing gear. The summer end (90) is just the same as a straight EP 90 so no difference when warmed up.
Heat comes from friction - MoS2 reduces friction - so it could be worth trying a dose of moly.
I was at first (over 25 years ago) wary of using it in case it affected the synchros and created baulking but have not experienced any problem (likewise Fairey OD).
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I find series boxes are dirty crude engineering because you always drain out a bit of glitter.
I have drained Fiat UNO and Punto gearboxes for their first oil change at 80,000 miles and the oil has been clear of glitter.

[pop-rivet]

I think I will go with you and put Moly in the gearbox/overdrive & Diffs. :)
However I will steer clear of using any in the engine mainly because I think they reduce oil ways (to increase pressure) and also the fact that the filter removes much of it and it can clog the filter. As I have Turner Lump that performs well I don't want to sod that up! :eek:
None of that is an issue with difs, Gearbox & overdrive. Thanks for those that replied adding confirmation. :rolleyes:

[pop-rivet]

I


At this point I'd like to ask a question. I have been told to always use the same oil when changing. Since my mechanic uses it, I use Shell Rimula X. I think it has something to do with establishing and maintaining a consistent wear trend in the engine. Anyone have any ideas about this?

Henk



This could be true but at over 40yrs old you often dont know what others have used and judging by some of the oil I have drained from Series vehicles I think black Tate & Lyle Syrup was the order of the day !:eek:

[RUXY]

I think I will go with you and put Moly in the gearbox/overdrive & Diffs. :)
However I will steer clear of using any in the engine mainly because I think they reduce oil ways (to increase pressure) and also the fact that the filter removes much of it and it can clog the filter. As I have Turner Lump that performs well I don't want to sod that up! :eek:
None of that is an issue with difs, Gearbox & overdrive. Thanks for those that replied adding confirmation. :rolleyes:
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MoS2 can't harm your engine - if I ran my oil longer then I would use it, a regular dose will plate it in any case for a good while any you will probably get a bit more mpg..
You are probably running more MoS2 in your engine than you have ever done in any case. Forget the Teflon additive **** - there are only 3 common "emergency lubricants" (barrier lubricants) zink, phosphorus (that can plate like MoS2) and of course MoS2. Since the introduction of cats oil makers have had to reduce the quantity of zink and phosphorus to stop them being wrecked, so if the oil is a API spec. detailed as suitable for these engines then there will be additional MoS2 to make up for the reduced zink and phosphorus.
This is why you are better using an older API spec. oil in a series engine or if you know the internals are clean just change to a diesel oil.

[pop-rivet]

OK took that on board many thanks. MoS2 I assume that is mainly in molyslip product or is their a better one ?

[TBM]

On the molyslip gear/diff oil syringe thingy, it says not to use in overdrives. Is this a specific type of overdrive it refers to or does it apply to the fairey aswell? I have a syringe poised for action.....

[RUXY]

MoS2 = Molybdenum Disulphide.

Probably 2 or 3 larger firms sell MoS2 vehicle additives in UK - MOLY K.S. Paul / Molyslip etc.

[Richie_asg1]

Not to use in overdrives? I don't see why not. The plating action that it produces is not a solid lump like chrome would be, it's more a filling in of the valeys with a slippery substance thicker than oil. On a 1950's design with the wide tolerances used, I don't think there will be an issue. The benefits outweigh any tolerance issues. (unless someone can post knowledge of a damaged overdrive by using it?)

MoS2 is specified in gun lubricants because it it does not build up under heat and pressure, and remains a lubricant - even when dry.

If you apply Rocol ASP to the input shaft - or Prop splines or anywhere really, if you dissasemble it after service, you will see a mirroring effect where it has been compressed, thus saving wear from the steel.

[RUXY]

On the molyslip gear/diff oil syringe thingy, it says not to use in overdrives. Is this a specific type of overdrive it refers to or does it apply to the fairey aswell? I have a syringe poised for action.....

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It is OK in Fairey type OD or epicyclic type, I have had no problems in over 30 years.

The problems with MoS2 will be in limited slip type drives - possibly reffering to Laycock DeNormanville OD's.

[Snagger]

On the molyslip gear/diff oil syringe thingy, it says not to use in overdrives. Is this a specific type of overdrive it refers to or does it apply to the fairey aswell? I have a syringe poised for action.....That's more for the GKN type of overdrive, which uses ATF. That fluid doesn't mix with additives. The Fairey and RM overdrives, using EP90 and more "conventional" designs and materials, will benefit from the treatment.

[TBM]

Thanks guys, I will unload my syringe at the weekend....

[traffic]

I will be fitting an Fairey OD soon and my instructions say to use anti scuff paste, this is the Rocol stuff you guys are on about.

Do I apply it to the inside of the input shaft? If so there already seems to be some in there but is seems to have been contaminated with muck, probably from when seller had ot removed and stored?

Do I need to try and get rid of the mucky stuff first and then apply fresh?

Will a normal autofactors have the stuff I need?

[traffic]

P.S is it worth opening up the OD and inspect for wear while it is out the vehivle, is this pretty easy even for a novice like me?

[RUXY]

ASP from Moly Paul will probably be cheaper than Rocol, it is expensive stuff but a shaft & drive member are £200 plus - there is no alternative to stopping expensive wear. You need to clean up the input shaft internal splines and mating drive member splines, reddish fretting grime is ground up lost metal (the ASP combats this).
You need to thoroughly check for spline wear when fully cleaned up.
If the OD oil is clean - I would just give it an oil change and give it a run to see how quiet it is and check the synchro operation, bect clue to condition is the state of the old oil - check for dirt & glitter. If you have worked on them before there are a few clues on condition by removing the top cover.