Front wheels juddering

[muddy1]

I'm mentioning these two things together as they may or may not be connected. My landrover disco leans to the right. I assume it must be a weak spring. I can live with that. But sometimes, especially on a bump going downhill I get a violent juddering from the front wheels. I take my foot off the gas and eventually it settles down. It doesn't do it very often but when it does it can seriously effect my driving. The steering wheel judders like mad and the landrover wobbles all over. Lots of noise from the front. In 3 weeks I'm towing a boat down to Cornwall so it's an issue. I've had a garage mechanic look at it and he said he couldn't see anything wrong and to have the wheels balanced. Went to tyre place and he said that judging by my tyres it doesn't need it and that unbalanced wheels wouldn't have that effect on the steering anyway.

[Satancom]

Well balancing can have that effect. Check your power steering fluid level as this is a problem I had on my car when the resevoir was leaking.

Also check all steering linkages for play as this will also have the same effect. Bushes are often the culprit!

[Alane]

I have very wobbly steering on my 110

It was pointed out to me that the bush on my panhard rod was a bit tired, you could see the free play.

As it looks just as easy to replace the entire rod than just the bush (and I'm a tart)
I've just this minute got off the phone from buying a complete rod assembly from BM £45.45 Bargain!!

Ade

[muddy1]

The tyre guy said that if it was balancing, the landrover would do it all the time and not just when it went over a bump or something.
Garage mechanic said he'd checked all the linkage but I'm not sure if this includes bushes. Damn frightening when it happens. Feels like the wheels are coming off.

[serge]

Ours does the same thing, our mechanic looked at all the suspenion, drive shafts etc trying to find play and couldn`t, the only other thing that he recons it could be is their is a bushing on the steering arm, and that this has some play so may be the steering arm bouncing around, may have it fixed one day but its not as bad as yours by the sound of it.

[littlelegs]

Possibly swivel preloads or steering damper etc. but can still be balancing. I'm guessing this is a 200TDI. There are a few other threads on this, links at the bottom of this page.

[bilge rat]

[quote=littlelegs;1086052]Possibly swivel preloads or steering damper etc. but can still be balancing. I'm guessing this is a 200TDI. There are a few other threads on this, links at the bottom of this page.[/quote

sounds favorite to me, but would start by getting the wheels balanced first , take it to a different tyre place. the s/ damper take it off and work it in and out and feel iff there is a weak spot in the middle of travel. front shocks can also cause this prob . but i would try everything else first.

[littlelegs]

[quote=littlelegs;1086052]Possibly swivel preloads or steering damper etc. but can still be balancing. I'm guessing this is a 200TDI. There are a few other threads on this, links at the bottom of this page.[/quote

sounds favorite to me, but would start by getting the wheels balanced first , take it to a different tyre place. the s/ damper take it off and work it in and out and feel iff there is a weak spot in the middle of travel. front shocks can also cause this prob . but i would try everything else first.

Yup, and the weak/broken spring is not going to help either, usually it's a combination of problems.

[kevinrbeech]

This judder is common, and judging by the posts on this and other forums it is caused by any of several things.
I had this, I hit a bump at around 60mph and nearly lost control of the car due to the steering shudder. At my next service LR reported worn drag link ball joints, I changed them and that solved the problem. If you consider what is actually causing the shudder, ie something loose giving an amount of play, then that will narrow it down to several options, all of the steering ball joints, swivel bearings, various bushes, swivel pre-load, maybe, or you could just put on a new damper, this will mask the problem but of course it will still be there, you just won't feel it so much.
Consider this; When you are driving at 60mph everything is lovely, no vibration, this would suggest that it is NOT balancing, or tracking. When you hit a bump the wheels are thrown "out of true" and because there is some slack in the linkage the wheels are able to shudder uncontrolably as you describe, so in my opinion, and experience, it is a metal to metal joint.
I would start with the 4 ball joints then move to the swivels if the problem persists. Ball joints are arount £8 each and are an easy fit. Make sure that you buy the correct combination of L/H and R/H threads, 3 r/h and 1 l/h for a Discovery I.
I'm not suggesting that any of the aforementioned are not the cause, just passing on my own experience.

[muddy1]

Yes, I've already had a new damper put on and it seemed to stay away for a while. The landrover does cruise nicely at 60mph with no probs. I'll look into the points you've made. One other thing is I've got a leak in the seal of the ball joints, could this contribute?

[Kitform]

The panhard bushes have been mentioned, if you do change the bushes check the axle mount point for the rod, put the bolt back in without the rod and see if there is any play in the holes, even with a new bush fitted there will still be play at the axle end as the bolt moves in the hole.

The other end of the panhard rod fixing, the steering box bracket on the chasiss, doesn't seem to wear, just the axle end.

[littlelegs]

Yes, I've already had a new damper put on and it seemed to stay away for a while. The landrover does cruise nicely at 60mph with no probs. I'll look into the points you've made. One other thing is I've got a leak in the seal of the ball joints, could this contribute?

If the ball joint seals are split, dirt and water gets in and eventually causes premature wear.

[muddy1]

A new but strange development on this. Drove 200 miles with it laden down with loads of camping gear for a weekend in Wales and it seemed a lot better with little or no juddering. Does this add a clue of what it may be?

[kevinrbeech]

A new but strange development on this. Drove 200 miles with it laden down with loads of camping gear for a weekend in Wales and it seemed a lot better with little or no juddering. Does this add a clue of what it may be?

Nope!

To be honest there is no definative answer to your problem. We all have an opinion based on what we have changed/done to resolve the problem on our own, or our customers', vehicles. If you want to change only the correct part then best take it to a LR stealer, they will check everything for "play" and tell you what needs to be changed. And yes, I do believe that my local LR dealer is that good, they have always advised me correctly 100%.
Kevin

Ps, all your post proves is that when loaded with gear you don't travel as fast. LOL

[littlelegs]

A new but strange development on this. Drove 200 miles with it laden down with loads of camping gear for a weekend in Wales and it seemed a lot better with little or no juddering. Does this add a clue of what it may be?

It could do, my 200TDI only did this with the caravan on so was a bit lighter on the front, pointing more to swivels and preloads but as mentioned there could be more than one cause. Having it checked over by a LR expert is best or putting it in for an MOT is a cheap way of finding out most of the obvious causes if you mention the problem.

[muddy1]

I've had a garage look at it without finding a fault but admittedly it wasn't a LR specialist.

[serge]

Muddy 1
Our Disco also sits much better with some weight in the back, i think its more to do with actually getting some mass on the suspension and making them work, when empty you feel every bump in the road in the back seats, loaded up and its much better

[alan drover]

I've come late to this thread, so I hope someone is still listening! I'm suffering exactly the same problem with my 94 300TDi. I have changed the steeringdamper, had the swivels shimmed and bearings adjusted, fitted new front shocks, had the tracking checked and adjusted, and had new radius arm bushes fitted. The garage that look after the vehicle (trustworthy LR people, although not a LR dealer) reckon the rest of the bushes are OK. I have experience as a tyre fitter and agree that this is very unlikely to be wheel balance (although it might be worth a re-balance to prove the point) and like the sound of Kitform's suggestion about the panhard rod bracket being worn. I reckon that under normal loading, i.e smoothish road there is no movement in any bush/bracket because the friction between bolt/bush/bracket is enough to keep things solid. Hit a bad piece of road and the extra shock loading makes things move in the joints and over a bad length, this sets up resonances which make the axle judder like a wheel out of balance. And boy do they move in my case - not just feedback though the steering - the whole front of the car shakes!

When I get paid, I'll get this investigated and post again. Meanwhile, any other suggestions would be gratefully received! By the way, Kitform - have you had experience with such wear in the panhard bracket before?

Alan D.

[Alane]

I've recently changed my steering damper, put on a brand new panhard rod, had a brand new rear prop & UJ's fitted.
My shocks & springs are all new and at 55mph..............





I still get a judder!!:rolleyes: although it has subsided quite a bit.

I guess it's just supposed to be

Ade

[TEMPL4R]

Have you checked the drop arm is tight?

Chris

[kevinrbeech]

Drag link ball joints.
£8 each, one LH and one RH thread, and about an hour to do.

[Alane]

Drop arm

Ball joints

Check!! now both on my things to do list.

Curse you lot!!!!!! lol:D

[Kitform]

have you had experience with such wear in the panhard bracket before?

Yes, and while changing my panhard rod bushes I put a new bolt in the bracket on the axle end and noticed a fair bit of play in my bracket on the 'nut' sdie as well.

I repaired the bracket and fitted new bolts and bushes.
It's helped with my steering problem, but not cured it.

[alan drover]

Thanks for that! I can't see any evidence of movement of the bolt on the axle, but there's got to be something moving seriously to set up the kind of vibration that I'm getting! I'm really surprised that no-one can offer a definite cause, seeing as it seems to be so common! All the symptoms that the other contributors have described are exactly as I'm getting!

The annoying thing is that the roads in the Borders are not rough enough to be able to demonstrate the problem to anybody! But on holiday recently, I've had to be really careful on some stretches as the vibration can be pretty frightening when it does happen.Will have to keep spending the money, I suppose until it goes away!
Alan D

[Kitform]

Alan, as you say you have experience of being a tyre fitter so I presume you would have spotted this if it was present but...

Have you checked the rims for being true, i.e. not buckled?

[kevinrbeech]

Alan Drover, please read this
This judder is common, and judging by the posts on this and other forums it is caused by any of several things.
I had this, I hit a bump at around 60mph and nearly lost control of the car due to the steering shudder. At my next service LR reported worn drag link ball joints, I changed them and that solved the problem. If you consider what is actually causing the shudder, ie something loose giving an amount of play, then that will narrow it down to several options, all of the steering ball joints, swivel bearings, various bushes, swivel pre-load, maybe, or you could just put on a new damper, this will mask the problem but of course it will still be there, you just won't feel it so much.
Consider this; When you are driving at 60mph everything is lovely, no vibration, this would suggest that it is NOT balancing, or tracking. When you hit a bump the wheels are thrown "out of true" and because there is some slack in the linkage the wheels are able to shudder uncontrolably as you describe, so in my opinion, and experience, it is a metal to metal joint.
I would start with the 4 ball joints then move to the swivels if the problem persists. Ball joints are arount £8 each and are an easy fit. Make sure that you buy the correct combination of L/H and R/H threads, 3 r/h and 1 l/h for a Discovery I.
I'm not suggesting that any of the aforementioned are not the cause, just passing on my own experience.

In my opinion the definate cause is either one or both of the ball joints on the drag link. I rebuilt every part of my front end axle and suspension in 2003/4. I have never replaced the steering damper and I've had the car since 141k and it has now done 220k. In 2006 I gradually started to feel the vibration that is being discussed. When driving to Fareham later that year I hit a pothole just before the M27, I had just overtaken a big truck, I had to brake hard to stop the wobble as I nearly lost it completely. Because of where I live, and where I travel to on a daily basis this was not a significant problem. When the car went in to LR for it's pre-Tunisia check they reported, without me mentioning the wobble, that the drag link ball joints needed replacing, there was nothing else wrong with the car that wasn't covered by the service. As I had some in the spares that I carry I only had to buy two RH threaded ones to replace both the drag link and track rod ends. I even took the car to the same pothole, at the same speed to ensure the problem was solved.
As has been said, any play in the steering can be the cause, but in my experience it is the ball joints.
Don't know what else I can say really, I don't have letters after my name so maybe I'm wrong.

[kevinrbeech]

Alane,
I've recently changed my steering damper, put on a brand new panhard rod, had a brand new rear prop & UJ's fitted.
My shocks & springs are all new and at 55mph..............





I still get a judder!!:rolleyes: although it has subsided quite a bit.

or you could just put on a new damper, this will mask the problem but of course it will still be there, you just won't feel it so much.

Does this not fit with what you've found? If you don't fix the cause you have to replace the damper again in the not too distant future.

[littlelegs]

Worth looking at this to get an idea of the causes of shimmy.

http://www.mscsoftware.com/events/vpd2004/na/proceedings/pdfs/2004-082_ledesma.pdf

[alan drover]

Thanks for all the help, guys! I think I'll start with the ball joints and if that should fail, I'll call Arvin Meritor and get them to adapt the MSC.ADAMS model to a Discovery and probably end up getting the whole front chassis and suspension re-designed! :)(Read the link on the last post!)

Alan D

[littlelegs]

Thanks for all the help, guys! I think I'll start with the ball joints and if that should fail, I'll call Arvin Meritor and get them to adapt the MSC.ADAMS model to a Discovery and probably end up getting the whole front chassis and suspension re-designed! :)(Read the link on the last post!)

Alan D

New vehicles don't start out with shimmy so it looks like a direct result of wear in one or more areas and common to other forms of transport like bikes, aircraft and shopping trolleys! I think it can be a combination of faults but slack in the swivels or twist in the axle altering the castor angle is most suspect especially in vehicles with high unsprung weights that can generate a large oscillating momentum that's difficult to control once it is bounced off the road with a pothole. Cure the shopping trolley problem and you're half way there! :D

[alan drover]

I hear what you say and that was behind my thinking with the panhard rod. The fore-and-aft location of the axle by the radius arms has been checked, but sideways location by the panhard is also a suspect area.

Alan D

[John H]

Hi
right at the front of this thread you mentioned that a spring was either weak or broken. I have read the whole thread through quickly and cannot see that you have replaced it.

Years ago, when a kid, my dad had this problem with a MK1 Cortina. I know it had a different suspension set-up but he also replaced everything until it was discovered to be the front springs winding up and then working against one another. I agree that it is frightening. It was also worse when the whole car was loaded, i.e. with stuff on the roof etc.

If it gets better with a load in the boot this may be because the weight on the front is relieved slightly.

So I would strongly suggest replacing the front springs and or checking their seating, tightness of fixings, wear in rubber washers etc.

If this does cure it I will be SO CHUFFED for you!
regards John

[alan drover]

It is a thought, John - I have replaced the front shocks, but not the springs. Finances dictate that I have to live with the problem at the moment (as I say, road surfaces are pretty good in the Borders, so it doesn't give too much trouble) but I will get back to it and I'll certainly bear your suggestion in mind. I think the springs all round are a bit tired, so could do with replacing anyway.

I'll keep you in touch with what I find. Thanks again!!:)

Alan D.

[Netto]

A new but strange development on this. Drove 200 miles with it laden down with loads of camping gear for a weekend in Wales and it seemed a lot better with little or no juddering. Does this add a clue of what it may be?

Same issues on my 110 TD5 - and again it travels and handles so much better when fully laden and doing the same speeds.

Seems to me already mentioned, it is a combination of things that have worn - in need to upgrade all my bushes anyhow, so this is potential fix no1. I'm also going to 'look at' ball joints, track rods, dampers and shocks/springs...

:biggrin: