1994 RRC service/noise query

[adam1977]

Hi all,

I recently went to see my local LPG 'expert' regarding a service; as I have only owned the car since February, and don't know when it was last done...

He informs me that there isn't anything to service on my car, and that its fine :rolleyes:

Does this sound right? I thought there might have been some filters at the very least :confused: I have had problems with it switching over to gas on occaisons, and last week I started it on gas when warm only to be greeted by quite a loud noise from the gas tanks :eek:

Can anyone offer me any advice please ;)

Adam.

[cedarland]

When I got my P38 converted they told me that it should be brought back once a year but that is mainly to check for any leaks, examine the filter and put it on the computer to make sure everything is OK. Have'nt had any problems with the switchover but I no longer start it on gas even when hot. Was doing it but blame that for 2 burnt out HT leads. Maybe a coincidence? Did'nt experience a noise even when I was doing it.
Hi all,

I recently went to see my local LPG 'expert' regarding a service; as I have only owned the car since February, and don't know when it was last done...

He informs me that there isn't anything to service on my car, and that its fine :rolleyes:

Does this sound right? I thought there might have been some filters at the very least :confused: I have had problems with it switching over to gas on occaisons, and last week I started it on gas when warm only to be greeted by quite a loud noise from the gas tanks :eek:

Can anyone offer me any advice please ;)

Adam.

[adam1977]

Hi,

It does sound logical to have it routinely checked, it does smell of gas sometimes at the rear of the car too :rolleyes:

The gas chap actually recommended starting it on gas when hot due to the fact its a pig to get started on petrol when warm, he also stated that on his own 4x4 he always starts it on gas, cold or hot and that maybe I should do that to 'save petrol'.

Whenever I have switched over with the engine cold it cuts out, which is quite understandable, maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about :confused:

Cheers :)

[cedarland]

Try another "Expert" Are you ever in Glasgow? George at Clarkson Motors here IS an expert and very helpfull.
Hi,

It does sound logical to have it routinely checked, it does smell of gas sometimes at the rear of the car too :rolleyes:

The gas chap actually recommended starting it on gas when hot due to the fact its a pig to get started on petrol when warm, he also stated that on his own 4x4 he always starts it on gas, cold or hot and that maybe I should do that to 'save petrol'.

Whenever I have switched over with the engine cold it cuts out, which is quite understandable, maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about :confused:

Cheers :)

[SimonHobson]

I recently went to see my local LPG 'expert' regarding a service; as I have only owned the car since February, and don't know when it was last done...

He informs me that there isn't anything to service on my car, and that its fine :rolleyes:
Find an expert that knows something about the subject then :rolleyes:

I thought there might have been some filters at the very least :confused:
There will be (or at least should be) at least one filter in the system - there's a pic on this page (http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/Articles/Entries/2008/7/13_Installation_Rules_%26_Bits_Part_2.html), the first one in the text. As well as changing the filter if it's been on a while, the reducer will want draining of heavy ends.

To be honest, don't worry too much, but it depends on the milage. Normal advice is to to this every year or 12k miles - but on my first conversion I never got any servicing advice and ran it for about 5 years without (so I'd guess 50 to 60k miles) AND it was filled for most of that from red bottles which tends to be a very dirty source of gas. The reducer had a lot of heavy ends, and the filter magnet was very furry with iron particles, but everything still worked well enough.

I have had problems with it switching over to gas on occaisons, and last week I started it on gas when warm only to be greeted by quite a loud noise from the gas tanks :eek:
What sort of noise ?

When I got my P38 converted they told me that it should be brought back once a year but that is mainly to check for any leaks, examine the filter and put it on the computer to make sure everything is OK. Have'nt had any problems with the switchover but I no longer start it on gas even when hot. Was doing it but blame that for 2 burnt out HT leads. Maybe a coincidence?
Starting on gas will NOT cause your HT problems - I did it with my Disco for 6 years, and my 110 for 2 years. So that's 8 years of regular (every day) use and almost always starting on gas (mostly as it's a hassle starting/switching on petrol when it's carbs).

It does sound logical to have it routinely checked, it does smell of gas sometimes at the rear of the car too :rolleyes:
That could be indicative of a leak, or a valve not shutting. It would be helpful if you could narrow down where the smell comes from, though that can be difficult to tell as it tends to be very diffuse and pervasive :rolleyes: In particular, does it come back out of the air intake ? And is there a faint 'hiss' from the reducer after you've stopped ?

The gas chap actually recommended starting it on gas when hot due to the fact its a pig to get started on petrol when warm
I've noticed my 110 can be awkward for a hot start now it's an EFI.

Whenever I have switched over with the engine cold it cuts out, which is quite understandable
It shouldn't cut out, that too is indicative of a fault somewhere.

Putting two and two together (and usually getting 5 :D), does the noise you hear sound like gas being forced through a tiny hole - possibly something like a toilet cistern when it's filling up but only lasting a second or three ? Ie, you get "clunk <valves opening>, squark, hissss, silence".

[adam1977]

Try another "Expert" Are you ever in Glasgow? George at Clarkson Motors here IS an expert and very helpfull.

Hi,

Unfortunately i've never been that far north :D, I think Hull has been the furthest and that was in 1990 :eek: thanks anyway though ;)

I have seen another LPG place that's just into North Wales (Deeside I think) I might give them a call ;)

Adam.

[adam1977]

Find an expert that knows something about the subject then :rolleyes:

There will be (or at least should be) at least one filter in the system - there's a pic on this page (http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/Articles/Entries/2008/7/13_Installation_Rules_%26_Bits_Part_2.html), the first one in the text. As well as changing the filter if it's been on a while, the reducer will want draining of heavy ends.

To be honest, don't worry too much, but it depends on the mileage. Normal advice is to to this every year or 12k miles - but on my first conversion I never got any servicing advice and ran it for about 5 years without (so I'd guess 50 to 60k miles) AND it was filled for most of that from red bottles which tends to be a very dirty source of gas. The reducer had a lot of heavy ends, and the filter magnet was very furry with iron particles, but everything still worked well enough.

What sort of noise ?

Starting on gas will NOT cause your HT problems - I did it with my Disco for 6 years, and my 110 for 2 years. So that's 8 years of regular (every day) use and almost always starting on gas (mostly as it's a hassle starting/switching on petrol when it's carbs).

That could be indicative of a leak, or a valve not shutting. It would be helpful if you could narrow down where the smell comes from, though that can be difficult to tell as it tends to be very diffuse and pervasive :rolleyes: In particular, does it come back out of the air intake ? And is there a faint 'hiss' from the reducer after you've stopped ?

I've noticed my 110 can be awkward for a hot start now it's an EFI.

It shouldn't cut out, that too is indicative of a fault somewhere.

Putting two and two together (and usually getting 5 :D), does the noise you hear sound like gas being forced through a tiny hole - possibly something like a toilet cistern when it's filling up but only lasting a second or three ? Ie, you get "clunk <valves opening>, squark, hissss, silence".

Hi Simon,

Thanks for your reply ;)

I thought he was quite knowledgeable at first, he put a new filler on as the old one was leaking when I took the screw in cap off :eek: and made a good job of it, he was pleasant and polite too.

I just get the impression that he doesn't want to touch my car, for whatever reason, he doesn't ever seem too busy though... :rolleyes:

The picture on your site looks a lot like the valve on the bulkhead, if I dismantle this won't there be a massive discharge of gas? or is there a valve near the tanks? also do you know where I could get a new filter element from?

From what I understand, don't you need the coolant to be a certain temperature to convert the liquid into a gas, hence why it stalls when cold :rolleyes: I always thought that's why it conked out.

The smell seems to just come from the rear of the car, near the gas tanks, there was a slight leak from the reducer, but my gas expert tightened that up slightly and its been fine since. The noise is as you described, like a valve clunking, but was quite high pitched, worried the hell out of me :confused: I've never noticed a hiss from the reducer, but there again I've never listened for it, I'll do that sometime over the weekend ;)

It did stall today at a set of lights, we'd travelled about 7 or 8 miles and it just decided to die, it restarted straight away on petrol though, I'm starting to think maybe that filter is blocked, it would make sense :rolleyes:

The hot start problem really annoys me, I'll be taking it to a chap I know next week to see if he can diagnose it, checking for spark, fuel pressure etc, I'd love that to be cured :(

By the way, great site, I haven't explored all of it yet, but it looks like it'll give me a better understanding of an LPG install :)

Many thanks,

Adam.

[SimonHobson]

The picture on your site looks a lot like the valve on the bulkhead, if I dismantle this won't there be a massive discharge of gas? or is there a valve near the tanks? also do you know where I could get a new filter element from?
Best to slacken the pipe unions until they start to leak and then leave it till the pipes are depressurised (but only do this in a very well ventilated area). Alternatively, if you can shut off your tank outlet valve - run the engine on gas until it dies. You'll be surprised how much gas there is in the pipework and filter :eek: Don't just unscrew a pipe fully or attempt to dismantle the filter unit while it is still pressurised - if the system is still pressurised and/or the tank valve isn't shut then you will get a discharge of very cold gas, and the boiling point is -40˚ at atmospheric pressure so you can get severe frost burns which are painful (I'll leave you to imagine how I know that).
There should be a solenoid valve on the tank(s), and there should also be a manual shutoff. If one or other of these is shut then you won't release the contents of your tank when you remove the filter.
As for filter elements, I generally don't bother - a whole new filter only costs me about 11 or 12 quid and a filter element costs 3 or 4. The whole unit is generally easy to change even if it's a different make/model, changing the filter means having the right filter to hand :rolleyes: The old one goes in a bucket of copper and brass scrap to be weighed in sometime.
I'd guess you can buy them from the places that advertise kits etc (WTV comes to mind).

From what I understand, don't you need the coolant to be a certain temperature to convert the liquid into a gas, hence why it stalls when cold :rolleyes: I always thought that's why it conked out.
Yes, but the 'certain temperature' is something below -30˚C - yes, that's a minus there so f***ing cold. I've started my Disco and 110 in very cold weather on gas, certainly well below zero. The only consideration really is that your antifreeze needs to be working to prevent the coolant freezing before it starts warming up as the engine runs.
In fact, the reducer will run the system for a while with no coolant at all - initially it will use the heat contained in the metal casing and absorbed from the air to vapourise the gas - but eventually you get frozen up and the engine will stop. In my 110 this can be as far as 5 miles :eek: See this article (http://diy-lpg.co.uk/Articles/Entries/2008/7/8_The_Big_Freeze.html).

The smell seems to just come from the rear of the car, near the gas tanks, there was a slight leak from the reducer, but my gas expert tightened that up slightly and its been fine since. The noise is as you described, like a valve clunking, but was quite high pitched, worried the hell out of me :confused:
My guess then is that you have a small leak in a pipe joint. When you stop, gas leaks out (giving the characteristic smell) and depressurising the system. When you switch over to gas, the valve opens, gas rushes through to re-pressurise the system (possibly tripping the excess flow valve), and causing the 'squealing' noise as it does so.
When you stop or switch back to petrol, the excess flow valve reset, and you can then switch to gas again and it works.

It did stall today at a set of lights, we'd travelled about 7 or 8 miles and it just decided to die, it restarted straight away on petrol though, I'm starting to think maybe that filter is blocked, it would make sense :rolleyes:
A blocked filter wouldn't normally cause that - it tends to manifest itself as a loss of power at full throttle as the engine get starved.

The hot start problem really annoys me, I'll be taking it to a chap I know next week to see if he can diagnose it, checking for spark, fuel pressure etc, I'd love that to be cured :(
As an experiment, does it make any difference if you switch to petrol before you stop ? One thought is that when you stop, the intake system is loaded with gas - and when you restart the petrol system adds a rich mix of petrol as well as, so you get a mix that is too rich to burn until the gas is flushed out.
If you are parked for a long time, the gas diffuses away, if you are stopped for a short time, the ECU puts less petrol in as it detects the engine is still hot - either way, teh over rich situation is avoided.
I also considered that if the solenoid valve on the reducer is faulty, the gas in the pipeline form the filter to the reducer and already in the reducer will bleed out into the intake and cause a very rich mix.

By the way, great site, I haven't explored all of it yet, but it looks like it'll give me a better understanding of an LPG install :)
Well I started it since there still seems to be very little information available to DIYers - and I wish I knew back when I started what I know now. The site is an attempt to pass on what I know - which isn't everything :o

[steve@offroadin]

I have seen another LPG place that's just into North Wales (Deeside I think) I might give them a call ;)

Adam.

They did the conversions on my 2 jeeps and a mates too, v helpfull

[adam1977]

Hi all,

Sorry I haven't replied for a while, we've been on holiday in South Wales, and the Rangie has behaved itself over 600 miles :)

I say behaved, well it only cut out on gas and refused to switch over twice :D now we're back I can get on ordering the shut off valve, should be fun ;)

Steve:

Thanks for that mate, a personal recommendation is always useful ;)

Simon:

I have tried switching over to gas a few minutes before I stop the engine, but it's still the same. What I have noticed about the hot start problem is that the longer I leave the engine, the harder it is to get it to fire. I've also noticed that it doesn't take as long to crank if the accelerator pedal is flat to the floor, starting on petrol, weird :rolleyes: I have been wondering whether the MAF sensor is working properly, would this stop it from running properly when hot :confused:

Adam.

[SimonHobson]

I have tried switching over to gas a few minutes before I stop the engine, but it's still the same. What I have noticed about the hot start problem is that the longer I leave the engine, the harder it is to get it to fire. I've also noticed that it doesn't take as long to crank if the accelerator pedal is flat to the floor, starting on petrol, weird :rolleyes: I have been wondering whether the MAF sensor is working properly, would this stop it from running properly when hot :confused:
Well now I'm used to mine, I find it hard to start when hot as well :rolleyes: I've also found it helps to floor the throttle (normal way of dealing with flooded engine). I guess the ECU is simply applying too much enrichment for a hot start. Note to self: must test the temperature sensor sometime.

I think if the MAF was faulty then you'd have lots of problems - running as well as starting.

[adam1977]

Well now I'm used to mine, I find it hard to start when hot as well :rolleyes: I've also found it helps to floor the throttle (normal way of dealing with flooded engine). I guess the ECU is simply applying too much enrichment for a hot start. Note to self: must test the temperature sensor sometime.

I think if the MAF was faulty then you'd have lots of problems - running as well as starting.

Hi Simon,

I've just fitted a new gas shut off valve, following your advice :) It was quite simple really, hardest part was switching off the gas supply on the tanks. I've also bought a new temp sensor (genuine Lucas one) and a charcoal cannister, it does seem to be running well at the moment, but it's still not brilliant at starting when it's hot, I am however determined to solve it :D

Adam.