Deal of the century

[Carl]

Looks like Russia is about to "buy" Iceland with a 4 billion Euro loan to stop the government going bankrupt.

[adafish]

that means we will have KERRY KATONA selling vodka for a POUND

[se7enup]

:D

[Lighting90]

that means we will have KERRY KATONA selling vodka for a POUND

Nope, for a euro

[myRoverToo]

Hope it's not going to happen.

[saltireblue]

The population of Iceland is only about the size of Coventry, but their aggressive bankers have made the banking system there extremely widespread internationally.
A crash could mean the ripples on the pond affecting people and institutions all over europe.:(

[sniff my diff]

do they get the Bejam name thrown in as well....:D

[Snagger]

A crash could mean the ripples on the pond affecting people and institutions all over europe.:(But a Russian bailout means hostile Russian forces now based on our doorstep and controlling the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, which was the primary function of Britain within NATO. If this happens, all NATO countries will have to at least quadruple their Defence budgets. Even if they do, I'm not wild about a fleet of Russian bombers and submarines being based so close to the UK.

Some of us have been banging on about the falseness of the "peace dividend" and the short sightedness of military cutbacks for years. Now we have been proven right in a very alarming way.

[Rich_P]

Some of us have been banging on about the falseness of the "peace dividend" and the short sightedness of military cutbacks for years. Now we have been proven right in a very alarming way.

Quite so. I hear that they got one of their infamous Blackjacks within striking distance of Hull the other day, and the RAF were not aware of the aircraft until it was headed out of British Controlled air space! :rolleyes:

[Snagger]

Quite so. I hear that they got one of their infamous Blackjacks within striking distance of Hull the other day, and the RAF were not aware of the aircraft until it was headed out of British Controlled air space! :rolleyes:It's happened many times and is still going on frequently. Russia is squaring up for conflict with Europe, and everyone else is looking the other way, refusing to believe it's happening. Look at how the Russians have got away with invading Georgia - they have even defied the withdrawl resolutions with impunity. They will blockade any country they like and no-one will dare challenge them.

[skip2]

But a Russian bailout means hostile Russian forces now based on our doorstep and controlling the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, which was the primary function of Britain within NATO. If this happens, all NATO countries will have to at least quadruple their Defence budgets. Even if they do, I'm not wild about a fleet of Russian bombers and submarines being based so close to the UK.

Some of us have been banging on about the falseness of the "peace dividend" and the short sightedness of military cutbacks for years. Now we have been proven right in a very alarming way.

Oh great back to the good old days of the cold war, triple defence spending bring back conscription, turn shi*(5y cars back into tanks, ships and planes and we'll all have jolly good old jobs for life. Yeap all for that.

[saltireblue]

But a Russian bailout means hostile Russian forces now based on our doorstep and controlling the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, which was the primary function of Britain within NATO. If this happens, all NATO countries will have to at least quadruple their Defence budgets. Even if they do, I'm not wild about a fleet of Russian bombers and submarines being based so close to the UK.

Some of us have been banging on about the falseness of the "peace dividend" and the short sightedness of military cutbacks for years. Now we have been proven right in a very alarming way.

But we're talking about banks, not tanks. I don't really think that an economic crisis in western europe is going to lead to a russian takeover - don't forget, they had to close their stock exchange to prevent it going through the floor. They are as much affected by the recent economic events as any other land.
Abromovich is not a sleeper in West London:)


Quite so. I hear that they got one of their infamous Blackjacks within striking distance of Hull the other day, and the RAF were not aware of the aircraft until it was headed out of British Controlled air space! :rolleyes:

This has happened many times, on both sides, nothing new in this. Both sides "test" the opposition regularly
.

[Snagger]

But we're talking about banks, not tanks. I don't really think that an economic crisis in western europe is going to lead to a russian takeover - don't forget, they had to close their stock exchange to prevent it going through the floor. They are as much affected by the recent economic events as any other land.
Abromovich is not a sleeper in West London:)


So, what do you think Russia is likely to ask from Icelend in return for saving their economy? Mineral water? Herring? Or maybe just a few square miles of land to call home?

[skip2]

So, what do you think Russia is likely to ask from Icelend in return for saving their economy? Mineral water? Herring? Or maybe just a few square miles of land to call home?

Don't forget they got a lots of hot water as well

As for a stragtic base did'nt we invade it in the last war, well occuppied it at least

[Lighting90]

So, what do you think Russia is likely to ask from Icelend in return for saving their economy? Mineral water? Herring? Or maybe just a few square miles of land to call home?

Or maybe they are using business sense and demand decent returns on their investment to help bolster the Russia finances, like any lender of money does.... does any one know what the interest rate is for instance... If they lend that sort of money at say 6% interest, they would make a fair amount of money from it. Russia may use the money to invest in arms etc, or even just pay off debts they have inccurred from other countries over the years...

It is staggering to see some of the posts in the thread and the wild speculations been made, because it is Russia that is providing a three year loan to the Bank of Iceland. These sort of loans go on all the time between Banks and countries, nothing new. If more surprising the speculations are all based on very little fact just personal fears.

[Snagger]

the speculations are all based on very little fact just personal fears.
Have you been keeping up with current afairs lately? Russia are continually sabre-rattling, invading other countries and invading our airspace and territorial waters with bombers and warships. That doesn't suggest to me they want to give us a loan with a profitable interest rate...:rolleyes:

[RUXY]

Hull was sunk by the "Cod Wars" when the US instructed GB to give in, Iceland won that "Cold War" - they lost in a Hot financial war, let them eat cod :biggrin:

[justMike]

But a Russian bailout means hostile Russian forces now based on our doorstep and controlling the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap, which was the primary function of Britain within NATO. If this happens, all NATO countries will have to at least quadruple their Defence budgets. Even if they do, I'm not wild about a fleet of Russian bombers and submarines being based so close to the UK.



Nick...

fer gawds sake man... before ya bother typin jibberish like this... RESEARCH... geeze....

[charliedenny]

looks like a possible BCCI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Credit_and_Commerce_International) your local council might have money invested! See Here!!! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660438.stm) :eek:

[Lighting90]

Have you been keeping up with current afairs lately? Russia are continually sabre-rattling, invading other countries and invading our airspace and territorial waters with bombers and warships. That doesn't suggest to me they want to give us a loan with a profitable interest rate...:rolleyes:

Nick, they have been doing that for years, just the same as the US does it, and same as the UK forces too.... means nothing much. In fact, personally I would be far more worried if they didn't do it, as that may indicate they are actually up to something rather than wasting time and money doing the testing out... It should also be said we do not find out about everything that goes on, only snipets from time to time.

Likewise, don't see Russia giving us a loan, would be too worried we would default on it.... like we did on some of the ones we got during the second world war... still paying some of those off even now. They loaned the Bank of Iceland the money, obviously they take them as a good risk.

[toppa]

looks like a possible BCCI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Credit_and_Commerce_International) your local council might have money invested! See Here!!! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660438.stm) :eek:


Heard about the council's INVESTING money, disgusting!!!!!!!!1 They charge us a small fourtune every month, and they have money spare to invest????????????????????


Cheers

[Lighting90]

Heard about the council's INVESTING money, disgusting!!!!!!!!1 They charge us a small fourtune every month, and they have money spare to invest????????????????????


Cheers

The thing to remember, they have to advise what they are going to charge you a year in advance, so to assist with coping with inflation rates, the money is invested to ensure it lasts through out the year.

Likewise, they may also allocate money towards major works, just like any developer, and as such, can not just stick the money in the safe in the council offices, they invest it so it can generate some interest and as such hopefully allow them to have a bigger budget to spend on the project. Having worked on various council developments in the past, I know for a fact that if they had not invested the money in the same way pension companies do, the projects would not have gone ahead as quickly as they did. Also they have legislation in place which also resticts how much money they can put away for futrue projects and how long they can keep it for. If they need larger sums or need to invest for longer, they have to request for exceptions to the legal standings.

You should be more worried about councils who do not invest their money to help generate extra income, as they would be only using the money that you are paying them.

[badlands]

Looks like Russia is about to "buy" Iceland with a 4 billion Euro loan to stop the government going bankrupt.

I wonder if they will ask for a buy one get one free sort of loan.:D

[Snagger]

Nick, they have been doing that for years, just the same as the US does it, and same as the UK forces too.... means nothing much. In fact, personally I would be far more worried if they didn't do it, as that may indicate they are actually up to something rather than wasting time and money doing the testing out...

The amount of Russian infringements has massively increased over that last 12 months, back on a par with what it was during the cold war. Putin, and now his puppets, have been pouring Russia's new found wealth into the Russian forces, and have managed to return most of their air force fleets to serviceable condition. I suspect the same is true of their navy. The whole situation is very similar to Germany's re-armament in the 1930's, and I'm appalled that everyone is casting a blind eye to it in the same way as they did to Hitler. Have none of you studied history? Russia is putting itself in to a position where it can blockade any European country it wants, or at least declare areas of international waters as sovreign territory, and thus wreak economic havoc. By probing our defences, they are not just wasting their own fuel, they are wsting ours and using up our extremely limited military resources. They can afford it, we can't. They are also testing our resolve, and it's clear that our government has none.

I can't believe you don't see what's coming.

[Snagger]

Nick, they have been doing that for years, just the same as the US does it, and same as the UK forces too.... means nothing much. In fact, personally I would be far more worried if they didn't do it, as that may indicate they are actually up to something rather than wasting time and money doing the testing out...

The amount of Russian infringements has massively increased over that last 12 months, back on a par with what it was during the cold war. Putin, and now his puppets, have been pouring Russia's new found wealth into the Russian forces, and have managed to return most of their air force fleets to serviceable condition. I suspect the same is true of their navy. The whole situation is very similar to Germany's re-armament in the 1930's, and I'm appalled that everyone is casting a blind eye to it in the same way as they did to Hitler - surely you at least see that? Russia is putting itself in to a position where it can blockade any European country it wants, or at least declare areas of international waters as sovreign territory, and thus wreak economic havoc. By probing our defences, they are not just wasting their own fuel, they are wsting ours and using up our extremely limited military resources. They can afford it, we can't. They are also testing our resolve, and it's clear that our government has none.

[Snagger]

Nick...

fer gawds sake man... before ya bother typin jibberish like this... RESEARCH... geeze....Care to qualify that a bit, Mike? The RN's principle responsibility in NATO was to keep the Soviet submarine fleets out of the Atlantic by bottleing up the GIUK gap. Now, not only do we lack the assets to do that, but the Russians have excessive influence over the central island in that strategic choke point. Why do you dispute that?

[RUXY]

I can understand why Councils have deposit accounts in Icelandic banks but the amounts are truly staggering when council tax payers are being poleaxed.
However can anybody give me 1 good reason why TFL had £40 million there :eek: - also where did they get this money from in the first place ?

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/09/london.transport (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/09/london.transport) - 8 hours ago

[TBM]

if McCain gets voted in, Russia will be the least of our worries. He should have stuck to making oven chips.

Having studied History quite extensively, I really can only see vague links between German re-armament in the post 33 period and that going on in Russia at the moment. The end result may be similar (enlargement of the armed forces), but can find little similarity between the cause and motivation. Using a historical analogy is only relevant if it's accurate.

Snagger, your paranoia seems to be on the increase again. Is it time to up the medication?

[justMike]

Care to qualify that a bit, Mike? The RN's principle responsibility in NATO was to keep the Soviet submarine fleets out of the Atlantic by bottleing up the GIUK gap. Now, not only do we lack the assets to do that, but the Russians have excessive influence over the central island in that strategic choke point. Why do you dispute that?

quite simply Nick... because your paranoia is clouding your judgement...

if need be, ANY NATO asset can carpet the whole Scotland-Iceland-Greenland gap with so many sonar bouys that you could walk from John O Grotes to the north pole without gettin yer feet wet; EVERY russian sub has a permanent 24/7 NATO boat shadowing it through every cruise; the air assets that have you cowering under your bed are as credable a threat as our old Shackeltons... Their entire surface fleet and long range air assets can be monitored by satalite, threat level assessed and the appropriate action engaged long before they become a viable threat.

As for influence.. I very much doubt Icelanders are so easily, much less cheaply bought...

[justMike]

Having studied History quite extensively, I really can only see vague links between German re-armament in the post 33 period and that going on in Russia at the moment. The end result may be similar (enlargement of the armed forces), but can find little similarity between the cause and motivation. Using a historical analogy is only relevant if it's accurate.



yupp.... I thought exactly the same thing...

[skip2]

if McCain gets voted in, Russia will be the least of our worries. He should have stuck to making oven chips.

Having studied History quite extensively, I really can only see vague links between German re-armament in the post 33 period and that going on in Russia at the moment. The end result may be similar (enlargement of the armed forces), but can find little similarity between the cause and motivation. Using a historical analogy is only relevant if it's accurate.

Snagger, your paranoia seems to be on the increase again. Is it time to up the medication?


More like russia wants to take control of what is considers it lost after the break up of the old USSR

[Lighting90]

I can understand why Councils have deposit accounts in Icelandic banks but the amounts are truly staggering when council tax payers are being poleaxed.
However can anybody give me 1 good reason why TFL had £40 million there :eek: - also where did they get this money from in the first place ?

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/09/london.transport (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/09/london.transport) - 8 hours ago

The amounts of money put away by councils might seem high, but think how much a school costs to build, while they may ahve say £4million in the bank, they may not have put all that in the account this year, but have been saving up over the last few years to enable them to build a new school, sports centre etc, and what make shock some, it is a legal requirement for councils to invest the money to enable it to increase at least to match the rate of inflation or exceed it...

You also have to take into account he money that they receive in council tax, firstly not all services are required through out the year, therefore some things are going to have money building up each month ready for when it is needed, for example buying salt for the gritters, you don't want your council to be buying it the day before they need it, so they buy it in the summer when it is cheap, this means the couple of million they need to buy the salt, is sat doing nothing most of the year...

Maybe the reason why so many are shocked is because people have forgotten about how to invest their money over the years and have just got use to spending every penny they get each month... even putting your money in an high interest savinbgs account is an investment with the bank you open the account with.

[Lighting90]

The amount of Russian infringements has massively increased over that last 12 months, back on a par with what it was during the cold war. Putin, and now his puppets, have been pouring Russia's new found wealth into the Russian forces, and have managed to return most of their air force fleets to serviceable condition. I suspect the same is true of their navy. The whole situation is very similar to Germany's re-armament in the 1930's, and I'm appalled that everyone is casting a blind eye to it in the same way as they did to Hitler. Have none of you studied history? Russia is putting itself in to a position where it can blockade any European country it wants, or at least declare areas of international waters as sovreign territory, and thus wreak economic havoc. By probing our defences, they are not just wasting their own fuel, they are wsting ours and using up our extremely limited military resources. They can afford it, we can't. They are also testing our resolve, and it's clear that our government has none.

I can't believe you don't see what's coming.

Okay, others ahve replied to some of the points raised and no point going over those again, you also seem to forget that the world has moved on far more and things are far far different, more so when it comes to millitary action. If Russia wanted to do damage to a country like the UK, they just stop trading with us in all many of things, from buying our wheat to stop selling us their gas... It would have a far greater impact these days than sending in the bombers. You might respond that it doesn't work on other countries when we have done the same, but then we have tended to do it on developing countries where the economy is less relient on the world markets. Though you only have to look at Zimb, and the super high inflation rates, how the country is in a comepete mess socially with governments doing all sorts of things to stay in power.

As time goes by the world will change to make it harder for any country to make a stand, to take on others, as the need to coexist with your neighbours becomes far greater. At the end of the day, we all live on one planet, one day we will realise the only way for us to survive as a world is to work as one, and already the signs are there that it is starting to happen. But as long as we still have those who are parnoid about those from other nations, or even different parts of the same city, the process will be slow.

[Snagger]

Okay, others ahve replied to some of the points raised and no point going over those again, you also seem to forget that the world has moved on far more and things are far far different, more so when it comes to millitary action. If Russia wanted to do damage to a country like the UK, they just stop trading with us in all many of things, from buying our wheat to stop selling us their gas... It would have a far greater impact these days than sending in the bombers. You might respond that it doesn't work on other countries when we have done the same, but then we have tended to do it on developing countries where the economy is less relient on the world markets. Though you only have to look at Zimb, and the super high inflation rates, how the country is in a comepete mess socially with governments doing all sorts of things to stay in power.

As time goes by the world will change to make it harder for any country to make a stand, to take on others, as the need to coexist with your neighbours becomes far greater. At the end of the day, we all live on one planet, one day we will realise the only way for us to survive as a world is to work as one, and already the signs are there that it is starting to happen. But as long as we still have those who are parnoid about those from other nations, or even different parts of the same city, the process will be slow.Technology has changed, but little else has. Russia has already tried to seize the Artic, planting a red banner on the ocean floor at the North Pole. They plan to grab all the resources up there and prevent any other nation from sharing them. They will also control the North Sea. I'm amazed that you can be comfortable with this. Russia invaded another Sovreign state just a month ago, and stuck two fingers up at Europe when we demanded they leave. Ukraine is still suffereng from Russian power cravings. You really need to understand that Putin is a psycopath and doesn't give a damn about world opinion. If it suits his ego one day to hit us militarily, he will do so without a second thought, but until then, just having his forces dominate the northern end of the North Atlantic and North Sea will cause massive losses to sea-borne trade, non-Russian oil/gas extraction, fishing and more. The economic damage will be significant.

As for your second paragraph, it's noble sentiment, but that's all. It is pure sentimentality. Every nation just does what is in its own interests, just like they have always done. That's not going to change, because it's Human nature. How many countries even protested loudly or suggested sanctions against Russia, never mind offered Georgia or Ukraine military help? Not one, even when specifically and directly requested by those nations.

Stock markets existed in the 30's too, and the world thought it had moved on from military conflict after WWI. Really, study history and see where this is going!

[Panama]

Russia invaded another Sovreign state just a month ago, and stuck two fingers up at Europe when we demanded they leave.

George Bush did the same thing a few years ago and Europe helped him!

[Snagger]

George Bush did the same thing a few years ago and Europe helped him!
Doesn't that just prove my point, then, that humanity has in no way moved on from its historic traits of self interest and predisposition towards violent confrontation? That the world's most priviledged, civilised, educated and advanced societies still behave this way? You even see it intimately in individuals outside pubs and clubs at "chucking-out" time.

[scruffytruck]

.... That the world's most priviledged, civilised, educated and advanced societies still behave this way? .....

are we still talking about America?? and Russia & the UK ???

[TBM]

Is the threat from Russia equal, lower or higher than that posed by the eastern european immigrants, the chinese, the asians, speeding motorists, the japanese, muslims, chavs, the liberal pinko lefties, those that litter, school teachers and the travellers?

We'll have to change your username to Nostradamus with all your predictions and portents of doom.

[Barlow]

Looks like Russia is about to "buy" Iceland with a 4 billion Euro loan to stop the government going bankrupt.

I saw it on ebay before for 99p lol! (no joke)

[Lighting90]

Stock markets existed in the 30's too, and the world thought it had moved on from military conflict after WWI. Really, study history and see where this is going!

Seems I know history slightly better than you Nick, no disrespect, but who thought the world had moved on from Military conflict in the 1930's...

The 1930's wasn't such a rosy time for anyone, the recession was what allowed Hitler to move into a position that gave him such power. He took control of a Germany because the people in that country demanded a leader who would help the German people, and exclude those from other coutries who lived and worked there... nope still can't see how that works as an example of what Russia is doing.

Likewise you bang on about how russia invaded another state, now why did they do that, well they claim it was to stop the russians who lived there from been persecuted by the Georgian nationalists... some say those russians people had been encouraged to move there just so Russia could do that.... errm North Ireland anyone? Does that sound familiar...

You also mention how Ukraine is suffering from Russian power cravings, ermm, I hear the same rumbles about how Westminster is ruling and dictating over Scotland, and Wales... then of course we also hear how the UK is been battered half to death by those nasty European minsters... or even how the USA is pulling the strings of our government...

By the way, Putin isn't the President anymore, Dmitry Medvedev is. Though maybe you will say he is just a front man of Putin, just like Gordon Brown is a front man for Tony Blair or John Major was a front man for Maggie Thatcher....

So here we sit, thinking how nasty Russia must be, while we also think how wonderful the USA is, both have fairly large armies, both go off meddling in other countries affairs, both try to play god. Maybe we should in fact be friends of both and become neutral in all of this, after all, Switzerland hasn't done too bad over the years by staying neutral...

[justMike]

Technology has changed, but little else has. Russia has already tried to seize the Artic, planting a red banner on the ocean floor at the North Pole. They plan to grab all the resources up there and prevent any other nation from sharing them. They will also control the North Sea. I'm amazed that you can be comfortable with this. Russia invaded another Sovreign state just a month ago, and stuck two fingers up at Europe when we demanded they leave. Ukraine is still suffereng from Russian power cravings. You really need to understand that Putin is a psycopath and doesn't give a damn about world opinion. If it suits his ego one day to hit us militarily, he will do so without a second thought, but until then, just having his forces dominate the northern end of the North Atlantic and North Sea will cause massive losses to sea-borne trade, non-Russian oil/gas extraction, fishing and more. The economic damage will be significant.



Nick... I take it that while doin yer day job, yer sat at the helm wi the sleeves rolled up, shades on and the window open huh..??? Gotta be cos the last eejit I came across sproutin utter tosh like that was seriously narc'd oot o his heid... (ex diver)... So Joe Ruskie planed a plaque on the sea-bed demonstrating.... what exactly..?? That they're so rich in titanium that they can afford to just dump it...?? That's hardly news... entire islands in their sector of the arctic circle are littered with the hulks of their aging nuke boats, each with enough titanium to turn yer average areospace engineer green with envy...

How in the name o hell does a plaque entitle any state to claim terretorial rights fer cryin out loud...??? Gimme a break already...

As for dominating the north sea.. WITH WHAT...??? I take it that while this halucination was formin in yer heid, the entire NATO fleet was conveniently glossed over eh..??? No other european country has any deployable air assets capable of patrolling and protecting airspace and terretorial waters...??? RAF coastal patrols should jus give it up n stay home???

Honestly...

Look... if you're gonna put any argument up at all... put some work into it... dismissing this lot is easier than shootin fish in a barrel...

[Snagger]

I don't think the reality of what Russia is like will ever sink in for you two. They are trying to rebuild their empire, but you refuse to see it. I suspect the rose tint to your glasses is so strong that they're opaque. Mark my words - there will come a serious confrontation between Europe and Russia, and we will need to find a diplomatic solution because miltarily we'd have no hope - they are massively re-arming while the European defence budgets continue to shrink - we spend half on defence what we did the last time Russia could field this size arsenal, and other European nations spend even less.

Arguing semantics is pointless. It is inescapable that human nature does n ot change, and that the circumstances that led up to WWII are being repeated right now. I'm astonished that anyone in the UK could believe that Russia is not likely to pose a threat within the next decade. Sure, they're unlikely to carry out a conventional invasion of Europe, though I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of them occupying part of Scandinavia or eastern Europe, but once they control the North Sea and North Atlantic, you can count on them carrying out routine acts of piracy and international intimidation by blockades.

But you've convinced yourselves that Russia is a lovely, friendly and decent power, and that Putin, psycopath that he is, has managed to relinquish his ego and thirst for power... That makes this whole discussion futile.

[justMike]

But you've convinced yourselves that Russia is a lovely, friendly and decent power, and that Putin, psycopath that he is, has managed to relinquish his ego and thirst for power... That makes this whole discussion futile.

Sod it.. you want the gloves off...??? Grab yer teddy bear Nicky boy n hold on tight...I seriously doubt you can deal with a reality break...

Sure, the Russians are spending vast amounts of cash on their military; ever thoought to see where the money's actually going???? Their personell are getting paid for the first time in damn near 2 years, and paid enough to mean they needn't work civilian jobs every hour god sends just to enable them to eat.
They're spending on housing, infrastructure, schools and the basic amenities that have been cash starved for over 20 years; their entire system is literally crumbling around their ears and reversing that neglect won't happen overnight and can't be done cheaply.

Sure, they're rearming too... we've made damn sure they HAVE to... as their former empire disolved, europe and NATO couldn't move quickly enough to fill the void, and Bush, bless his cotton sox took pains to make a HUGE deal about encompassing Russia with his questionable missile defence system. How do they combat that with armarments that are mostly museum pieces..??

For sure, there's a ton of sabre rattling going on, but it's NATO that's doing it, NOT THEM... put yourself in Putin's shoes and ask yourself what you'd do in that position if ya dare... I wouldn't trust the Americans as far as I can throw them, and they're sposed to be on OUR side...

Military aside, the spendin reqired inside Russia utterly dwarves the amount of investment we're sadly lacking; the state their military is in is a reflection of the entire country. By kick starting a military rebuild, they not only give themselves a better counter to NATO aggression, they give their ecconomy a much needed shot in the arm too; inward investment means you reap ALL the benefits, rather than buying from overseas.

Russia's taking advantage of newly organised oil wealth to get out of a position WE'VE gone out of our way to put them in; in every conflict we've been involved with since GW1 we've demonstrated the weaponry and capability to attack at will; every conflict we've been involved in since then has seen us go head to head with soviet defense systems and make them look foolishly ineffective.


we spend half on defence what we did the last time Russia could field this size arsenal, and other European nations spend even less.


could this be because successive governments have had to live with the reality that if they dare even THINK about raising taxes to maintain defence capabilities, wailing sheep such as you will cry about exploitation. You need to accept your part of the responsability for the mess you say we're in...

[alex]

:D
We'll have to change your username to Nostradamus with all your predictions and portents of doom

What`s Roman Emperors got to do with it?:eek:

Trust you to balance the arguement TBM! :D

[TBM]

:D

What`s Roman Emperors got to do with it?:eek:

Trust you to balance the arguement TBM! :D

Thank you!

Actually, if I thought a certain person had a working knowledge of Germany from 1918-45, in particular the end of the Weimar Republic and the rise of Hitler, then I would be more interesting in debating rather than making comedic interjections. Unfortunately, as usual, the blinkers are firmly attached.

Hey ho!

[alex]

" Certain Person " is a riot when he goes off on one though...I love it:D

[Lighting90]

I don't think the reality of what Russia is like will ever sink in for you two. They are trying to rebuild their empire, but you refuse to see it. I suspect the rose tint to your glasses is so strong that they're opaque. Mark my words - there will come a serious confrontation between Europe and Russia, and we will need to find a diplomatic solution because miltarily we'd have no hope - they are massively re-arming while the European defence budgets continue to shrink - we spend half on defence what we did the last time Russia could field this size arsenal, and other European nations spend even less.

Arguing semantics is pointless. It is inescapable that human nature does n ot change, and that the circumstances that led up to WWII are being repeated right now. I'm astonished that anyone in the UK could believe that Russia is not likely to pose a threat within the next decade. Sure, they're unlikely to carry out a conventional invasion of Europe, though I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of them occupying part of Scandinavia or eastern Europe, but once they control the North Sea and North Atlantic, you can count on them carrying out routine acts of piracy and international intimidation by blockades.

But you've convinced yourselves that Russia is a lovely, friendly and decent power, and that Putin, psycopath that he is, has managed to relinquish his ego and thirst for power... That makes this whole discussion futile.

Nick, why do you beleive your so right to dismiss what others are saying, without the counter arguement.

For information, Putin is actually a major problem for the Russian government, why you may ask, not because he wants to retain power and rule the country, as you seem to think, it is the fact he has managed to move large sums of money into his own personal bank accounts in Switzerland, this was why he was made Prime Minster, not because he is power hungry. They are affaid that if he left, he would not invest his money in Russia anymore. But obviously your paying some intrest in Russian Polictics to be able to form your views, and you were totally aware of the above money situation with Putin.

Mike is correct with what is going on in Russia at present, and your also aware that they are also trying to combat the criminal mafia with the military, as the Police have become hopeless due to the bribing and threats etc. Again, something you must be aware of in your study of Russia to be able to assess the situation as you have done.

Totally agree with you that we should be talking with Russia, as we need to trade with the country to help our own economy, and likewise Europe as well.

But can you explain how you come to the concluesion that Russia is building up it's empire again? Which countries have they taken over and removed the government in power.