Aaarh Bloddy Thing Missfire Back

[MAB]

:eek: dont beleive it td5 is miss firing again.have spoken to engineer who is not able to come and have a look until monday.So p***ed off with this.As i mentioned before only just bought it ,picked it up exactly 2 weeks tomorrow.I now have the S M flashing on my dash as well as the missfire.Feel like returning car today and getting my money back ,however i do know the Engineer who sasked not to do anything until monday and he will check over the gear box has it may be corrosion of connector or wiring which is causing the S M error.Told me not to worry about the engine.I trust the guy he has looked at all my cars and LR 's in the past and always stuck by his word and as always told me if there was anything a miss with any car I have owned.Always been able to rectify any problems the dealers cannot sort. Oh well wait for his advice on monday.

Wanted to see how good it was off road this weekend n all, something not too bad just to check everthing is as it should be ,hill decent,low range ,air suspension etc.Like I saild Really really really p***ed off with this.Come monday i will be smiling or crying.Cant go though hunting down another Disco again Took me bloody ages to find one what I liked.
Update you all on monday after the engineer as been.:(

[Satancom]

Porny on here is probably one of the best guys to talk to.. Never met the chap but his TD5 knowledge scares me :scared:

[v8jobster]

have you checked the ecu harness for signs of oil on it? common on td5's:rolleyes:

[lawson]

Hi there the missfire could be a number of things mose common are oil in the ECM, faulty injectors or harness and diesel in the sump. As for the M and S lights they are most likely to be air con drain pipes dripping on to the XYZ switch (gear position) you cant diagnose either with out a diagnostic computor.Lawson

[MAB]

Thanks everyone for all your input. things what have been checked which I have witnessed.
ECU for oil - its clear with no signs of oil in harness.
fuel pump as been replaced with new unit
fuel line was pressure tested and results was when reving above 2000rpm needle was more or less in the same position on gauge,below or idle rpm the needle was invisable .it was high / low.
check ed engine oil for diesel in it none present ,no smell of diesel either.one thing that i have not seen checked is the maf , but i was not always watching the engineer as I kept getting pulled back into office .I dont think the engineer would of missed checking that as he seems quite switched on with the TD5 .As I mentioned before engineer coming back out on monday see reults we get then.

One thing for sure I know what I want off Santa this year.

workshop manual
parts manaul
and if He can afford it a nonacom .just so I can keep Checking For faults.

engineer did mention you can have upto 25 faults with the car without the errors been flagged up on the dash.

thanks again guy,s

just looking through the forum now having a beer and chilling.:cool:

[Tom Mepham]

RE- ECU for oil - its clear with no signs of oil in harness.
Did the Engineer check the multiplug where the main harness connects to the injector harness under the rocker cover?
This is a really common thing with the Td5 engine, oil tracks up the copper strands in the cable via capillary action.
It will ultimately happen on all of them, I chap I know who worked at an independent LR garage (he was their Td5 wizard until he went self employed) always cleans this multiplug out with brake cleaner when he services a Td5.
Tom

[MAB]

I had that checked before the engineer was called back again ,no signs of oil in the harness or in the ecu connector . I noticed since the fault re appeared it seems to be getting worse. ie at first it would be when you first start up ,once warm would the engine would appear ok ,this time starts ok then misses at tick over and 2200 - 2400 rpm. also been told it may be a injector failing. met a guy who says he had exact same problem , he was based in wales and was under warranty at the time ,dealer replaced the following before finally fitting injector. Harness and ecu - fuel pump - maf sensor and injector sealing washers.As for the S M showing on dash He had same problem would pop up once in a blue moon and then be fine for months before showing itself again.Said it was the electronic box on side of gearbox possibly getting a little damp inside as it seemed to do it only when the weather was very cold or wet. Oh well will have to wait and see tomorrow when engineer calls back.
have also been told injectors can cost as much as £500 a piece :eek:.Car still under warranty .3000 miles or 3 months engine,gearbox and axles.
If no joy by end of month will have to ask for money back,Cant see the dealer puttting his hand in his pocket again especially if it is the injectors.
Would love to just start disconnecting sensors and switches to try and simulate fault,but dare not at the moment ,dont want to invalidate warranty.
again thanks to everyone for their input. I will hopefully get it sorted and be a happy chappie.

[Tom Mepham]

Duff Injectors can be found with diagnostics, and yes they are expensive. I don't think they fail very often, they are meant to last the life of the vehicle.
Tom

[MAB]

Hi everyone just had engineer back again,No joy Im afraid, he doubled checked everything again, harness ,ecu,maf ,plug his autologic computer in and check the injector register and re inputted the injector codes,check the injector balance and they were all over the place ,he said "its as if the fuel is surging on all injectors".He said he as heard of the problem before but no one as ever fixed it because it is too expensive.Not my problem its still under warranty "I replied " he then said I dont think the Dealer will go ahead with the remedial work ,I will call him and let him know" he then asked if I would allow him to look into the fault and give him until end of the week,I said yes Then I called the Dealer and explained the situation and Said if you cannot have car fully functional by the end of the week or have parts on order to correct the problem then car will be returned for a replacement or full refund.
Dont think I was too harsh but Have to get sorted as I Have only had the car 14 days 4 of which I have not used due to waiting for engineer and faults occuring.:(So will have to wait till end of week I supose.

[Tom Mepham]

You have done the right thing, at least your in a safe position.
Dose the engineer actually know what is wrong with it or was he about to start the expensive guessing game?
Tom

[MAB]

Hi Tom
Thanks for your input. I beleive the Engineer as a good idea to what the problem is but I think he as been told by Dealer not to fix it just yet.
I did say I would give them until end of the week to sort it out.
I Beleive It could be a faulty injector. Didnt want to push him too much and upset him.However i did notice that the cyclinder balance was up and down like a yoyo on all cyclinders .Have spoken to a few other engineers i know and they have all said more or less what everyone is saying on the forum ,
check harness,Ecu,Maf, waste gate, diesel in oil etc.all comes back ok.
no errors in diagnostics unless he is clearing them before i see them.
have written a letter today given them 14 days to rectify or refund my money.
If they do manage to sort it i will post everything what was checked and how they found the fault.Nosy ****** when me it comes to faults.I will let you know the outcome.
thanks again for you input appreciated.

[lawson]

If the cylinder balence is out it will probably be out a long way one one cylinder and the others will be out a little bit to compensate for the fault. 9 times out of 10 this will be a faulty injector but the injector harness could also be at fault.Try wiggeling the wires where they come out of the injector harness and see if this changes anything.Lawson

[ADBS65]

Mine has now developed the same fault :eek: Starts OK but as soon as its warm it starts missing. Removed plug from ECM, it was soaked in oil :( I have tried cleaning both multi plugs with clutch/brake cleaning fluid but no real success. I have now purchased a new loom/harness that has the red plug on the end. I will be fitting tomorrow and see if that cures it. fingers crossed!
I take it that oil cannot get into the ECM itself? I have had the top off and it looked ok but couldn't get the base plate off in case it has seeped in below the circuit board.

[lawson]

Have you got the full engine harness and the injector harness. If so this should cure the miss-fire. They arnt the easiest part to fit but fairly straight forward.Lawson

[ADBS65]

my mate has got it for me, he reckons it is the injection harness, that fits under the metal top cover and the harness that then goes to the ECM.
Hope that sorts it!

[lawson]

I thats the full thing hopefully that will fix it, It wont make it any worse anyway.Lawson:biggrin:

[MAB]

update on my Missfire problem ,as mentioned before engineer come out on monday to have another look no joy , spoke to him this morning and finally managed to get the fault out of him,INJECTOR/S he said I mentioned what about the seating copper washer and o rings.Told me Injectors ask why he did not let me know on Monday that it was injector , answer was thought you would go off on one(I can be a little firery at times).Also he had to wait for the man with the cheque book from the dealer coming back off holiday and give him the go ahead formore work to be carried out .
have to wait until the end of today to see if they are going to repair or refund me the car.let you all know what happens later.
have to mention I spoke to acompany in grimsby area TD5alive guy named Gary very helpfull I mentioned the problem I have with the engine he asked a few questions and witin 3 -5 mins confirmed it was a injector problem , if they had been diesel in the oil he said almost certain a cracked head,I ask why no error was detected and said it is mechanical problem not electronic. errors will only be logged when the electronics play up or malfunction etc.He seemed very confident.
Ask him if TD5 are a decent engine , could not prasie them enough as 03 disco him self and tuned up (that what he does)Must make sure they are serviced regular and not to ignore the centrifugal oil filter and also to use a high quality oil and filters.
website TD5alive.co.uk very helpfull guy.

[ADBS65]

I changed the injector loom, which is located beneath the metal "rocker" cover. Easy job, took opportunity to clean injector conections at same time. This touch wood/fingers crossed has cured my missfire. Incidentally, I didn't get the whole loom as I thought, just the wiring as above. Took about an hour and cost £40.

[Tom Mepham]

I had to do the do the same job back in the summer, had some running problems, changed the injector harness as oil had got right back the ECU. Just cleaned all the open ends a few times on the main harness back to the ECU, all the oil seems to have come out of the main harness now.
Also removed the EGR valve, and replaced the MAP sensor as oil had got right through that from inside the manifold nothing to do with the oil in the injector harness. Been right as rain since.
I never found miss fire but the engine just lost power a few times, bit inconvenient on the M25 at rush hour! lol
Tom

[ADBS65]

I have already done the EGR valve, where would I find the MAP sensor?

[Tom Mepham]

Its on the inlet manifold, they get black gunk build up on the sensor from the EGR Valve and give inaccurate pressure and temperature readings.
The readings are quite crucial as the ECU uses them to determine when and how much turbo boost pressure is required.
When they are clagged up the engine response is often not so sharp and won't pull so well at lower RPM.
Tom

[MAB]

Got to see the engineer yet again tomorrow He is going to fit something else would not say what. how ever the last 2 days engine seems to be behaving run smooth today , yesterday started fine started its usual missfire but once warm appeared to run fine.Now the engineer said if this part he fits does not cure it ,it will be a injector problem.Now can the injectors on a TD5 work intermittently or not I would of thought that if injectors were malfunctioning the ecu would detect any faults on the injector side of things but there is no errors or warnings logged in the ecu.
thinking of buying a nanocom diagnostic tool.do my own tests etc.
anyone got one if so what are they like to use ,easy/hard can the read and store all information off the ecu and be printed out at a later date.?

[ADBS65]

Mine was the same, would run ok, then develop missfire, park the car come back and missfire gone, then it would come back again. This suggested electrical, rather than mechnanical defect. For £40 and an hours work, I would change the injector harness and see if that solves your problem.

[MAB]

harness has already been checked dry as a bone ,also checked ecu ok ,however engineer as been back this morning and fitted wait for it a Fuel filter.Now since it has fitted it the engine appears to be more quiet,smoother and no missfire as yet ,will find out how it is over the next couple of days.Ask the engineer why fuel filter he replied "if you have used biodiesel it can just cause filters to fail and not allow free flow of fuel and cause a fuel surging type of problem ,worth a try" let you all know in a few days, not going to say its cured yet ,done that once only for it to return a really infuriate me.Argue with Dealer etc.we will see.

[ADBS65]

keep your fingers crossed. I know from this and other forums that bio diesel is a no no for the TD5 engine, so if you are/were using it you may want to stop. Regards your problem, my friends KIA played up after bio "cleaned" his fuel system and clogged the filter and injection pump. New filter and a strip down and flush out of the FIP sorted it.

[MAB]

New filter was fitted yesterday ,still got the problem today. I have never used bio however thats not to say the previous owner did use bio , I have am trying some fuel system cleaner FORTE DIESEL CLEANER, supose to be good. will have to wait and see.
starting to lose confidence in the car now , runs like a lada at moment uses loads of fuel 19mpg ,but when it does run correctly it lovely to drive. going to get in contact today with trading standards again see if they can give any advice on getting the car sorted.

[ADBS65]

Have your engineer checked the INJECTION harness UNDER the engine top cover? This is the one that was causing me the exact same problem and is regularly referred to as such on the forum. If oil has contaminated the contacts that fire the injectors, as was the case with my car, then it will missfire. When it gets bad, then you will get oil seepage down the external wiring down to the ECU.

[MAB]

Yes Engineer as check te following

harness and ecu for oil both both dry as also adjusted the pins in the harness to griptighter olso on the injectors as well

its had fuel pump and filter and fuel system cleaner .

computer show no error or warnings

connected a pressure gauge to fuel line and the pressure should be 4 bar constant , when engine is misfiring it is invisable to the eye until you rev the the engine and then it will be stationary at 4 bar ish.

Cannot see any fuel leaks. injector seals and washer are said to be ok .Engineer thinks it is 1 or more of the injectors but has to try cheap alternatives first as instructed by the Dealer I bought the car from.

Hope fully will have the car soreted in the next week.Not holding my breath though.

[lawson]

I have seen the injector harness fail and cause a miss fire when nothing visually can be seen possibly high resistance.Lawson

[MAB]

Hi Lawson thanks for your input,I spoke to the dealer today , asked him when can I expect the car to be sorted properly, mentioned what had already been done to it and let him know it is still he same, he said the engineer as been instructed to do what ever is required to sort the car out ,but first I have to wait until the end of the week and let the injector cleaning fluid do its job.then I can ring the engineer and get him to fit injector/s etc.
question ? is the fuel regulator powered electrically or is a self regulating with internal valve,s etc.
and will the regulator work as normal without the engine running?

[lawson]

The fuel pressure regulator is an electricly opperated valve that controls the flow of fuel into the head.Lawson

[MAB]

thanks for the reply ,but will it still give 4 bar of working pressure without the engine running. the reason I ask is when the engineer put a pressure gauge in line the gauge was all over the needle was near invisible. until you revved the engine.

[Tom Mepham]

The fuel pressure regulator is Mechanical! The only component that is electrical on it is the fuel temperature sensor.
There is a small gauze filter in the pressure regulator, I have heard that these can get blocked up if the dreaded Bio Diesel has been used!
Tom

[MAB]

thanks to you both will have alook at the weekend if I dont take it to TD5alive for them to inspect and give me a report on it.Its getting rally bad on fuel its doing 10 mpg at moment by my calculations.
be alot happier once it is sorted. been told once the missfiring problem sorted the mpg will be hell of alot better.
Will let you guys know the outcome when it is finally sorted.

[jetfiremuck]

The m+s light can flash if a missfire is detected in the engine.As the trans ecu and engine ecu are connected for shift pattern etc. When the missfire problem is repaired the problem usually gets resolved.

[MAB]

Had engineer out on tuesday last week fitted a injector ,does not missfire as such runs a lot better trying to find out if the MPG as inproved.still time for it to go wrong again.not saying it is fixed yet ,but it is looking good at the moment.

happy xmas to everyone and happy motoring etc.