Rangie axles on a Series

[Kyzer]

For those who haven't seen the post in the 'Public discussion' section, I'm currently putting Range Rover 'Classic' axles on my series landy for three reasons:

1, To increase the distance between the wheels meaning better stability off-road (rangie axles are 7 inches wider than series)
2, To utilise the disc brake system in conjunction with a rangie master cyl and servo
but mainly
3, To improve the overall gearing for the low revving but torquey Perkins diesel in my landy (I know the diffs would fit into series axles but the above reasons and the fact I like a challenge took me down this route)

I have little mechanical knowledge (first oil change in December was a major achievement!) but Weedy is currently doing something similar at the mo so will hopefully post and give me a few pointers along the way!

Here is my landy (Lucy) as it was when I bought it:

[Kyzer]

Next job is to give the rangie axles I bought off Fitz a while back a good service and purchase some new brake parts. Utilised the help of a couple of friends to lug the very heavy axles around - who needs a engine crane when you've got nearly willing mates? I'm not too well equiped, with only basic sockets, spanners and screwdrivers but have found the landy to be like a giant Mecanno set!

Pictured is one of my mates, Junior, who will be helping me out on this mission taking off the worse-for-wear calipers.

[Kyzer]

Whilst waiting for some parts to come for the axles, we set about removing the current rear axle from the landy. What a job!

Disconnected the newish looking brake hose from the copper line running along the axle, remebering to catch the fluid in a container. Not so bad, now for the prop, shocks and springs. Lots of WD40, swearing and skin loss from the knuckles took place, undoing the bolts holding the leaf springs and prop shaft in place, but finally managed to roll the axle away.

[JohnBoy]

Very interested to see how this goes, mostly in the steering area.

I figure that spring platforms can't be hard to make and U-bolts should be easily sourced, so I'm mostly curoius about the steering links.

John.

given that the axle is 7 inches wider what sort of issues will you have with tyres sticking out beyond the arches?

I'd assume that steering lock would be greatly improved.

John

[Kyzer]

Hi John,

I shall, as you figure, be fabricating some blocks to weld to the underside of the axle to keep the U-bolt lateral movement in check and the standard U-bolts will fit around the axle. The axle casings are fairly simalar but for the various extra mounts on the rangie axles.

I'll be leaving the front axle and the problem of the leaf springs being in the way of the rear track rod until I've got the rear axle in place. By this time I'm kinda hoping Weedy will have found a good way around the problem. However, I'm thinking that a possible solution would be to insert some rod to raise the rod above the diff and therefore prop-shaft.

With regards to the width issue, a set of wheel arch spats ought to keep Mr Plod happy. As you say, I should be able to achieve a half decent turning circle too! :yay:

Cheers

[JohnBoy]

Don't suppose you have a piccy or a diagram of the steering arrangment as it would be in the rangie do you?

If I had something to visualise I could at lest think about the problem.

Cheers,

John

[weedy]

ok boys i am working on the other end i puting the front axle on the steering rods ar going to be fun .Were as teh landy arms both run in front of the axle the RR has the one from the steering box at the front of the axle both the drag link (one between the two wheels is at the back of the axle and in the normal place will hit the springs i have throught of a away around it but i would like to think of another way of doing it as this way is a little rough and ready .

i have taken the landy axle off and cut the sring saddles off it these will weld on the RR axle 150mm in from the hub flange this give you the right wieth for the springs this is after you cut all the bits off that the coils sit on the front steering rod if you use the RR one and shorten it a bit it will fit and rear drag link is were i don`t like what i have throught of yet at the mom i was thinking of cut it about 6" from the track rod end and then with another lenth of rod over laping them and weld in together so it closer to teh diff this will get it to clear the springs but i am rethinking that



there will be some pics soon

[Kyzer]

Cheers Weedy - we were also thinking off cannabilising the series axles for the U-bolt locators but don't want to trash what are otherwise a decent set of axles (when I replace the rear halfshaft!). Was thinking of fabrcating something...? Anyways, whilst we haven't done much other than take the rear axle off and give the rangie axles a service, the steering arm problem has already started to concern me. Will be interested to see your solution.

Our progress yesterday
Had a productive day yesterday; found the cause of the loss of drive from the rear axle - sure enough, a broken halfshaft close to the o/s/r wheel bearing:

[Kyzer]

Next, my helpers and I took the diff off the series axle to check for wear and in preparation of giving them a good service before I sell them on (if all goes well with the rangie axles!). Did the same with the rangie rear axle and both diffs look in decent nick:

[Kyzer]

Whilst waiting for the new brake disks and gaskets to arrive, the lads had a poke around underneath the back end of the landy whilst I stuffed my face. They found a 5 inch long hole in the chassis about 3 inches in front of the rear spring shackel hanger! :sobbing: Will have to be welded before the rear axle goes back on so off came the back box:

[Kyzer]

Returned home to find the parts had arrived - another class job by Paddocks. This made me laugh; rear disc prices, Paddocks = £12.86 (inc VAT) Halfrauds = £55!!! :yikes: Anyways, I was like a kid at Xmas and it made my day a lot better after the holy chassis discovrery!

[Kyzer]

Stripped the remainder of the rear axles to get the old brake discs off to find a seal that I hadn't ordered. A 12mm twin lipped hub seal - old ones are a bit perished so whilst we're there we might as well sort it. Bit disappointing not to be able to put anything new on yet tho! Ah well, off down the pub.... :guiness:

[P00DLE]

ok spent 2 hours in garage with weedy tonight will let him explain tech stuff but here is pictures of progress so far

[P00DLE]

and another

[weedy]

i show you pics of the steering arms when i finish them but it all sorted out you will need some tube and some left and right thrended bolts and nuts to do this mate but will tell you more when i build it for real not just in my head


but as for the axle it near enough on i use the spring saddles off the old axle as they are the right shape for the job and making some thing up would only give us more head f**ks. They fit nicely on the RR axles in the right place as the pic shows that chris has put on for us these will weld on as for the bump stop stroke U bolds holds on the top of the axle i just cut the bit on the RR axles down to size . the angle of the diff is easy to set up the rear drag link sit on the springs this give you the angle that you are looking for and means the steering is in the right plase on the swivels . the control arm on the steering from the steering relay to the axle if youo use the RR one and put the landy track end in it is stop on mate
but the front prop you will have use the RR front prop as the landy one seem to be abotu 2" short of the diff

that it fro now more torrow mate

[P00DLE]

todays progress front axle now ready to be fitted

[P00DLE]

damn forgot picture

[P00DLE]

1 side ready for cleaning and painting

[P00DLE]

other side showing amount to cut off

[P00DLE]

axle painted up ready for fitting 2morro just need to do steering now then the back axle should be easy.

[weedy]

ok to day was a good day as you can see with the pic that chris has put on for us all to see . i just tack the saddles on the axle roll it off and then weld it up and chris painted it up .he also found out how to use a cup brush on a grinder He.HE.!!!!! great fun to whatch . but dose look ace
i do the steering torrow if i have time as i am do swivel on another landy

[owen]

Boys this all looks interesting and i am taking notes, however, what you all doing about brakes ??
The ranggie axles have 2 flexie hoses and series only have one, Also will the master cylinder be up to it ????????

Owen

[weedy]

owen is right what are e doing with the brakes whatch this space and it will be shown .


i do not know if it will pass the mot but it will be fine here

so keep looking

[Kyzer]

I'm going to be using a rangie master cylinder and servo unit which will throw up new challenges by itself. For starters, the unit looks far too big to fit.

Am away from home at the moment - will post a picture of the problem on Tuesday.

Cheers.

[P00DLE]

ok today some new problems, there is a weld line down the front and back of the axle casing and you need to grind this a little to allow the u bolts to fit, the u bolt by the diff u need to find a bigger bolt as no matter what we tried the bolt is just not long enough to fit, and the steering is looking like a bigger challenge than we expected but we will get there and there is no rush.

[weedy]

ok i was wiating for chris to put some more pics on but he must of forgot .


progress is good the axle is on now with all it blo dy "U" bolts and i have made the steering rods too they run under the springs now as if you set the diff up so it level then the rods pig backed will clear the under side of the springs but whatch out for the shocker they are in the way i got around this by shroting the bit that over laps this give full lock and nothing hits any thing but i will now have to make a biff plate to fit under the axle and springs so it stop the steering drag link from get bent .when you piggy back the rods the tracking adjust is then useles so i put an adjuster inthe middle of the rod so it can be track with ease when i have some pic i will show you the adjuster is a mornal thing that you can buy from boat shop for a tenner the pipe i used is red band gas pipe it has a 3mm wall so it stronger than the old tube plus it cheap to it cost about £6 a lenth i.e.6meters


if you are going to this job you need to be a good welder

[P00DLE]

1 end

[P00DLE]

other

[P00DLE]

adjuster

[P00DLE]

whole bar

[P00DLE]

as you can see there is not realy a lot of differance from a standard bar this 1 is set up to run under the spring so we will need to make up a bash gaurd for it, the adjuster is sleeved inside the bar and it is 3mm gas tube so it should be fairly bomb proof, i hope. steering lock is awesome pushing it round yard today to turn it in garage to start rear end gave a turning circle of 60 - 70% of what it was before.

[weedy]

the adjuster is so you can set the tracking up as i have over lap the end and if you turn them it will hit the springs




back end now while i wait for the parts for engine to be made

[Kyzer]

That looks a whole lot simpler solution to the lines I was thinking - was begining to worry about biting off more than I can chew! Thanks to you there is now light at the end of the tunnel! Will look in to geting some gas pipe and hopefully make some more progress this week.

Many thanks for the pics and commentary Weedy and Chris!

[P00DLE]

remember this is a vital part and if you are not sure of your welding skills pay a pro to do it for u. if this fails at speed it would not be good. we have worked out the brakes as well, connect the 2 hoses from each calliper to a t piece and run a dual circuit master cylinder set it up so that rear is 1 circuit and front the other not the usual way i know but makes the plumbing easier. and should make it easier to setup the fiddle brakes we want at a later date.

[Kyzer]

I have a friend who is a metal fabricator who will be doing the welding for me. He's also going to be making the spring saddles to weld onto the rangie axles rather than me grinding them off what are otherwise a perfectly serviceable set of series axles - hope to recoup some of my costs as the bank balance is getting a little tight after the new brake parts.

I have a rangie master cylider + servo unit to go in which I will be mounting on a modified series 3 servo equipped pedal assembly. It has the output pipes (dual circuit) but was wondering how the rangie brakes are normally connected with the 2 pipes on the front calipers? I was thinking they were normaly arranged how you (Chris) are going to set yours up?

Many thanks!

[weedy]

if you need more help or piomter then email one of those and i will point the right way

[Panama]

That looks like it should work, I like the adjuster. The rear should be simple.

[Mr_Wuffles]

I dont want to **** on your bonfire but IIRC you cant weld steering componets they wont pass an M.O.T. You should definately check about it.

[Kyzer]

Ooo err... well that has kinda ****ed on my bonfire.... :depressed

That for sure - desperately hoping that isn't true!

[landynutter]

well mabye u need to get ur mate to fabricate something, shouldnt be 2 hard with the right stuff mabye pipe bender tap and die set and some swearing should get it sorted

thats the best i can think of

[seriesowner]

I think Landynutter may be right; have a look here (http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_220.htm)

Steering system, section C part d

[P00DLE]

ok no mot here and after playing with the rod before fitting i aint bothered it is at least twice as strong as the origional rod and the welding by mr weedy is bomb proof

[Kyzer]

Been thinking on another solution - may be absolute non-sense to the mentally sound but I can't think of anything wrong with it:

Can I not unbolt the chrome balls from the axle casing and rotate them 180 degrees so the problem rod is infront of the axle and will sit above the leaf springs as with a series landy set-up? Could then bolt the other rod that connects to the steering drop arm to the mount holding the track rod in front of the axle?

Will knock up a diagram if you're having trouble picturing it, but otherwise would there be any major issues with this solution? I have already considered the brakes and steering geometry and can't forsee any probs, but I'm not exactly World Mechanic 2004!

[P00DLE]

ok if you angle the diff and fit military front spring shackles to move the springs out of the way you should be able to fit the axle using the standard steering arm in the normal postion with no problems.

[weedy]

as chris says you can put the axle with the diff in the normal place for the RR and the steering arm off the RR will fit over the springs. the mill shackles are so the angle off the prop is more near the same as it was before

[Kyzer]

I'm confused - how come you guys didn't do this? What are the drawbacks?

[P00DLE]

we were not sure about the rod toucing the springs at full articulation when used off road but then we came up with the idea of military shackle was not an option for us as we are fabricating revolving shackles soon and did not want to spend good money on a set of shackles. would have also had to buy a new drag link bar as we had already cut ours to fit

[weedy]

idid it the other way as it gave us a differ caster angle which is what we what for chris driving and the fact we are running parabolics and we are going put revolers on it later plus the motor that going in means that we need the room where the diff would be if we angled it up plus i did not think of it until i do chris and the point of weld rod was point out to me for your mot so i left out until now that may need it but i talk to are testing station on the island today which dose a test like your single SVET which is 4 times as bad as the mot he the man say that if you use strongher material than before and the welding is good then it will pass as some kit car need bit welding on the steering so it up to you which way you go or go and ask the nice man at your mot place

[weedy]

kyzer are you no msn messager mate

[Kyzer]

I also have plans for revolver shackles in the future with parabolics and extended shocks so would like to go the same way as you. I will go and have a chat with MoT place to find out what is what.

I'll PM you my MSN e-mail address.

[Kyzer]

To anybody interested, I haven't been lazy recently (despite little time and money!) but have been waiting on various parts for the calipers and spring saddles.

Calipers have been sandblasted (2hrs+ each!) and are being painted (cheers Junior!!!). Meanwhile, I have been grinding the mounts off the rangie axles (a rare picture with me in it! Ooo, I hate my pic taken!)

[Kyzer]

Sorry I missed you on MSN - was down the pub :guiness:

Here are the photos of my engine bay that you wanted (and for anybody else who's nosey!) - if you need any more/close ups give me a shout.

5 photo's from different angles in a zip file.

[Kyzer]

Nut's - was 40 bytes over the max file size! Try again...

Now 4 photos!

Edited:
It's not having it :banghead: Will wait until I see you on MSN next.

[Kyzer]

The pistons and seal kit needed for one of the calipers arrived yesterday, so Junior will be finishing the calipers, maybe for Sunday?

Meanwhile, I've been doing some minor bits whist waiting for the spring saddles to me made.

I devised this method of mounting my farm jack in the back so it can me locked and will leave space for a lockable cubby box without getting in the way of rear passenger's legs, loads etc.

(Have to pretend there's a floor there! Coming soon!)

[Kyzer]

Close up:

[Kyzer]

Back on topic:

I believe Weedy was fortunate enough to have some scrap series axles to canabalise for what I call the leaf spring saddles. Basically, they're the blocks of metal on the underside of the axle that locate the spring U-bolts laterally.

A picture is worth 1000 words...

[Kyzer]

The axles that came off my landy were mechanically sound, bar a broken halfshaft which cost me £12 and 20mins to fix, so I didn't want to go grinding bits off them. Hopefully I will be able to sell them to recoup some of the costs of the conversion at a later date.

However, these 'saddles' are pretty important so the springs (and therefore the rest of the landy!) don't slide from side-to-side along the axles (could make corners interesting though!). Fortunately I have a friend who is a fabricator who reckoned he could come up with a suitable replacement.

These are the parts he made...

[Kyzer]

Now they just need to be welded to the axles and we'll be about ready to fit the axle! :yay:

Whilst waiting I gave the axles a good servicing, cleaning leaves (!?!) out of the diff, new gaskets and seals all round and 1.75 litres of fresh EP90.

[weedy]

we did not have scrape axle mate but we cut them off any way as they were going to fit i knew it realy but your look good just rember to drill the hole to the locateing bolt mate

[50420T]

Hi Kyzer,

All looks promising so far, I was thinking of attempting a similar project myself so it's nice to see someone alse having a go and make all the mistakes first!

Just out of interest, what is your perkins lump, what does it rev to and is it awful to drive on road. Obviously you want more top speed or you wouldn't be putting rangey diffs in it, but whats it like having a very small rev range.

I have a prima at the mo, I know lots of people swear by them, but I'm just fed up with the turbo lag and lack or torque and so fancied somthing bigger, gruntier, and so usually lower reving. Sorry to to deviate from the axle thread, but what your trying to create is roughly what I'm after.

[weedy]

have a look at the 2.9 in to a s2a mate

[Kyzer]

Welcome to the forum 50420T!

No worries about the deviation - always happy to talk landy!

My perky lump is a 3.3litre 4203, and whilst not fast feels like it could pull a house over off road. However, if you're thinking of dropping one in your everyday motor, bare in mind that they only rev to 2,400-2,600 max which equates to around 55mph top speed with standard gearbox, S3 diffs, 7.50x16 tyres, no o'drive and very good ear plugs! As it was, 1st gear is almost redundant on-road with no load due to the oodles of torque! Hopefully gearing it up will help this!

I had no mechanical knowledge before I bought my landy in Nov '03 but have learnt very quicky by doing and with the help of Weedy and Chris. Best piece of advice from me: is it just the top speed you want to increase? if so just swap the diffs in your current axles as they are a straight swap. However, as my landy is my off-road toy only, I'm taking the extra trouble to gain the extra 7" track and disc brakes offered by the rangie axles.

Hope this has been some help and if you have any more questions, please do ask!

[50420T]

Thanks for the warm welcome Kyzer, always nice to be made to feel at home.
The reason I asked about the perky lump is that I worked there for six years until just recently and I just wondered if you had one of the new 1103 3.3 3cyl engines. When I still worked there, some of the chaps with prima'd 88's were toying with the idea of using one, but were worried about the rev limit,(2600) making it undriveable on the road, but I really fancy bucket loads of torque after living with the flat, revy prima for a year or so.

Don't get me wrong, I think the prima is a good lump, but I just find it very tiring driving it for any length of time having to rev the tits off it in each gear to make decent progress.

My Landy is also destined to be an off road toy 90% of the time, but also with good towing ability when required, two good reasons for big torque me thinks.

As such, I am certainly interested in a similar axle conversion cos I think it'll be well worth the hassle. My appologies if this is a stupid suggestion on the rangey axle front, but would it not be possible to make up spring saddles that are say, an inch taller than standard, to lift the steering bar above the springs and out of danger. Obviously that means loosing a bit of axle to body clearance and having the springs a bit closer to the ground, but it would appear to be a very simple solution?

I'm sure I've missed something fundamental floor with this idea, not having rangey axles to look at in front of me, but I just thought I'd air the idea.

Tata

[Kyzer]

Interesting thought on the spring saddles - can't think why it wouldn't work providing the U-bolts are long enough. Perhaps Weedy could cast his opinion on this having finished installing the front axle? Cheers pal!

I thought the engine had quite a large capacity for 4cyls, but 3.3l on 3cyls? Wow! I have no idea about the torque output of either engine but would caution that I have heard people using 4203s complain about short gearbox life expectancy. However, the 6 months I was using mine before I started work on it saw no problems.

[weedy]

420 mate the idea had hit me to but after looking and messing about with the saddles and things it was better on startard hight saddles as the prop could not be put in at the right agle but then the axle under springs would work well but i don`t like the look off that allow fro the fact that i have torne and axle off mine once before so this seem to be the best route


:bowdown:

ho i and wellcome to the mad house
:band:

[50420T]

Mornin all. Kyzer, your quite right, it is quite a big 3cyl, they are now making 3,4 and soon to be 6cyl engines, all 1100cc/cylinder. I'll get one of my ex colls to get the torque/power/weight figs on tuesday and see what you all think. I do know though that the 3cyl does only rev to 2600 but with a **** load of torque, maybe too much? Is that possible, only a problem if you've got a heavy right foot in low gears I suppose.

Weedy, I'm sorry, I can't see what you mean about the prop angle. I was thinking that with parras on, which drop the axle a bit, and then using these tall saddles, the diff would end up back at roughly the same height, I probably am being dim again though.

While I'm here, as you know my knowledge is as yet rather limited, how do defender axles differ to rangy items, can they be used for this conversion?
I've seen some defender axles locally but not come accross any rangey ones yet, just a thought.

[weedy]

hey boy not very good at writing and spelling so it will look wrong but i look and they were just not right may be if you spent time messeing around with them you get them righht


the def (coily) axles would work just as well it just i had a set of RR axle that came on the RR we took the engine out of

[50420T]

Hi Weedy, don't worry mate, I get the picture. I can't help thinking that if you could get these spacers to work, it would sort out all the steering problems.

I am sure that giggery pokery and welding of steering components can be done satisfactorily(I can't spell to save my life either), but I'd rather not tinker with such things if it can be helped.

So, defender axles should be ok then, the questions I really wanted answering are;

Are they the same width as RR's?
Are the diff's the same as RR's?
What ratio are they?

As I said, I really am new to this game, but full of motivation, and I really do want to do this.

Many thanks for your time Weedy.

[Kyzer]

I think, but stand to be corrected, the ratios are as follows:

Series 2, 2a, 3 - 4.7:1
Defender - 3.9:1
Range Rover Classic - 3.54:1

Not sure about Series 1s.

At any rate, as long as it's a Rover type axle casing (as opposed to Salibury and ENC), any Rover type diff can be swapped for one of a different ratio.

[Bmhor]

I think, but stand to be corrected, the ratios are as follows:

Series 2, 2a, 3 - 4.7:1
Defender - 3.9:1
Range Rover Classic - 3.54:1


Well almost Kyzer,

Defender diff's are 3.54:1 as well as Range Rover Classic's

They are all interchangeable but watch out for later Disc/RR 24 spline diffs which obviously need 24 spline 1/2 shafts.

[Kyzer]

Cheers Bmhor - had forgotten about the spline issues. With the 3.9:1, I think I was getting confused with the diffs that TIConsole sell.

[callum]

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman/LR/gear_ratio.htm

here's some info about ratios etc, although i daresay its been referenced before.

[P00DLE]

Hi Weedy, don't worry mate, I get the picture. I can't help thinking that if you could get these spacers to work, it would sort out all the steering problems.

I am sure that giggery pokery and welding of steering components can be done satisfactorily(I can't spell to save my life either), but I'd rather not tinker with such things if it can be helped.

So, defender axles should be ok then, the questions I really wanted answering are;

Are they the same width as RR's?
Are the diff's the same as RR's?
What ratio are they?

As I said, I really am new to this game, but full of motivation, and I really do want to do this.

Many thanks for your time Weedy.

the problem with using the saddles like u suggest is that u lower the body in relation to the axle which may limit articulation and will make the front end lower and more likely to ground out. may also raise the axle enouh to cause problems with catching on the sump etc.

[50420T]

I see what you mean chris, surely it wouldn't make that much difference would it?

Found this on Sunday, how I missed it before I don't know!

Here (http://threads.lro.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=series2&Number=405213&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=all&vc=1) .


Just skip down to the last 10 or so posts. Looks pretty good to me?!

[weedy]

thank you for that so there another way of doing it

[swag298]

Just found this on Ebay,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31348&item=2482460726&rd=1

At that price, why do it yourself?!

swag

[P00DLE]

we may just have sorted out the steering modification issues for all those of you who have to worry about the dvla sticking there noses in. my engine should be in the the next 10 days so watch this space. if it works like mr weedy hopes all that is required is some flat steel bar 1inch wide by 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick 4 1 1/2 inch bolts some 1 inch gas pipe or a range rover track tube. and 2 rose joints watch this space and all will be revealed looked so obvious when he drew it todat suprised we did not think of this before. :rolleyes:

[Kyzer]

Sounds promising!

I haven't totally ground to a halt on mine - just been busy with new job. Before I can get started on the axles again, I'm going to make sure she'll get thru her MOT in November. Jobs to do: patch the chassis, fix alternator back on to the engine (after it dropped off on the way to Billing :rolleyes: ) and the never ending search for the oil leak!

Not been totally idle; she's now standing proud on a set of parabolics and extended shocks :D .

[challisc]

"alas, all is not lost" Gandulf (lord of the rings (just incase you didnt know :D ))

[weedy]

right the rear axle is easy all i did was cut the saddles off the old axle and weld them on ethe rraxle straight forward enough compered to the frount

[challisc]

Lookin good ;) , dont forget to get wheel arches or mr mot man wont be happy :(

[weedy]

MOT man what that then



do noty have one here mate but if you put the swb rims on then the wheel are just in the body work

[challisc]

jealousy isnt the word :D

[weedy]

he he yep and it also any vercla that 25 years old is free tax

[challisc]

tax free after 25 yr or after dec 1971?

[weedy]

after 25 years mate

anything from landy to 8 leggers

[weedy]

ok here the report for you the rangey axles were not that bad to fit .and the gains are realy good steering lock is 3 time better than before and the extar track works in your favour with leave springs


all together it was well worth it

[Mikey 110]

What about some pics of the finished job then Weedy, under and outside.

[weedy]

more pics soon when chriss take some more for us

[Trouble]

any update on this:)

I Am seriously considering doing this, looks fairly simply all i need is some details on the easiest/best way of doing the front steering?
And would a Series 3 m/c servo be up to the job of disks all round?

[weedy]

the steering is the problem but it can be done but i have not had time to draw a pic on this bit but will do soon the way we have done it is ok but you might find it will not pass the mot i have another way of doing it wich will pass the mot but i have not draw it out or done one here yet

[Snagger]

after 25 years mate

anything from landy to 8 leggers

Sorry Weedy, but I think you'll find that our mate Gordon Brown (akaTheiving ******* Brown) decided he didn't have enough of our money, andthe 25 year qualifier lurched to a sudden halt on 31 Dec 1972. Anyvehicle BUILT after that date (33 years + 1 month or younger) will payfull road tax.

The best bit is the new vehicle registration charge that's on its waynext year. An annual charge for every vehicle, regardless of use, ageor status. That means tractors, combines, vehicles used on private landonly, long-term rebuilds, privately owned exhibits and anything elsethat is not languishing in a scrap yard.

So, as Land Rover owners, we pay the Treasury VAT, Road Tax, fuel duty(among highest in the world), and now another registration tax. Forthis, we are being banned from driving in the country, and increasinglyin towns, and being slandered, harrassed and vilified by elected Labourand "Liberal" officials (the supposedly open-minded and democraticparties).

Sorry for the hi-jack!

[challisc]

What a B*****d, so let me get this right i will have to pay TAX on my three Landrovers, that are currently off the road and two going under a rebuild! I'll have i good mind were to ram an exaust pipe!

Sorry to hijack the thread this kinda made me jump!

[Trouble]

yep you are gonna get charged to sawn a vehicle it sucks.

I am getting a pair of rangie axle soon just need a hand with the steering:)
And how to you make sure the diffs are at the right angle??? by eye??

thx for any help:)

[P00DLE]

Sorry Weedy, but I think you'll find that our mate Gordon Brown (akaTheiving ******* Brown) decided he didn't have enough of our money, andthe 25 year qualifier lurched to a sudden halt on 31 Dec 1972. Anyvehicle BUILT after that date (33 years + 1 month or younger) will payfull road tax.

The best bit is the new vehicle registration charge that's on its waynext year. An annual charge for every vehicle, regardless of use, ageor status. That means tractors, combines, vehicles used on private landonly, long-term rebuilds, privately owned exhibits and anything elsethat is not languishing in a scrap yard.

So, as Land Rover owners, we pay the Treasury VAT, Road Tax, fuel duty(among highest in the world), and now another registration tax. Forthis, we are being banned from driving in the country, and increasinglyin towns, and being slandered, harrassed and vilified by elected Labourand "Liberal" officials (the supposedly open-minded and democraticparties).

Sorry for the hi-jack!

ah but you see we live on the isle of man. and here anything over 25 years is tax free well they charge you a £5 admin fee

[weedy]

but we do lose the reg after 2 years if you do not tax it
which we then have put it through a test a bit like your SVLT but worst
so if it not got a log book it scrap

[Mikey 110]

How about those pictures of the finished article then Weedy ?

[P00DLE]

if the weather is nice 2morro i will try to take a load of pictures

[Trouble]

Hello:)

any update on the pictures or details, I don't know exactly the problems involved ya see. I did read if you raise the axle off the leafs by and inch or so it will all clear? This could be done quite easily by just making the leaf mounts a little higher and increasing the space between the leaf and axle??

I would rather not cut and weld steering components if possible. The back end seems very easy. Its only doin the front that worrys me as I don't want the vehicle off the road for to long.

any help apprecitated.

[P00DLE]

sory not got piccys yet and its raining at the moment so will try tomorrow when im at the garage. if you lift the axle of the springs yes it would work but you would need longer u bolts and would effectivly lower your ride hieght as soon as we get time to remake the steering so it is suitable for the mot we will post all of the details, at the moment my steering is a lot stronger than standard but as the track bar was welded it wouldn't pass an mot, what we have planned is to basically replicate the series style steering with the 2 bars at the front above the spring.

[alex]

Chris
How come you got 110bhp on your 2.7 (D21?) and I only got 115bhp on my 4.2 Patrol......this should be interesting.
Alex

[callum]

Chris
How come you got 110bhp on your 2.7 (D21?) and I only got 115bhp on my 4.2 Patrol......this should be interesting.
Alex

i would think the 2.7 has a turbo on (otherise its putting out a fairly massvie ammount of power for a small n/a) and i assume your patrol does not as patrols with turbos, 4.2's should do about 135 at least. there's a whole lot more available from the 4.2 with the addition of intercooler and some tuning if you have a turbo'd version.

http://www.4wdonline.com/News/1998/981111.Patrol.html

[alex]

Callum
Interesting to hear your views on Patrols. Looked at your web pages. How did you manage to get a turbo for td42. I know they are available aftermarket in Oz. My engine as you know is seriously underacheiving at 85kw. Mine is a GQ auto td42 brought into UK from Cyprus at new 94 model. I`m sure the GR models in uk have 124bhp. Any idea where this extra power comes from. Yeah my springs are sagging. Best deal I`ve seen price wise is £320 for Pro Comp springs and shocks 2" lift. Why are spares prices so horrendous? I mean it`s not an overly expensive vehicle to buy new.Lack of aftermarket competition?
Cheers Alex

[callum]

much as i'd like it to be, that aint my web page :(
and i have a lowly 2.5 n/a diesel 110

have looked extensively at replacing it with a patrol as i was runnig out of patience with the landie and there was abig attraction in a well built, well specified machine of similar size and with agood engine. unfortunately i just couldn't find a diesel one for sale in scotland. i could maybe have got a petrol 4.2 one, but that wasn't really what i was looking for. i must say as they were getting close to £2000 it was tempting to get one and a gas tank.at that price i could have kept the landie for a bit as well and decided which i preferred, see if i was wasting my time and money upgrading the landie to spec when there was something out there that promised all this already installed and the also promised extremely good reliability. unfortunatley time ran out and i had to go back to uni again after my years's professional experience when i was getting paid and had lots of free time, so no patrol, nor a landcruiser either :(.

i have done a fair bit of reading regarding patrols ( i really wasn't worked hard when working and had access to the internet). uk patrols all came with turbos on, hence the higher horsepower, however the engine still remains pretty lazy and as the link shows can be tuned to give a lot more as it does not come with an intercooler as standard. that dude has taken things pretty far, but there's lots to be had from the engine without going that far and getting into ceramic clutch territory etc. The engine was always designed to have a turbo, so as i understand it, its not a problem adding a turbo onto the engine as there is when turboing other stuff, i think the same goes for the n/a 4.2 landcruiser engine. i belive the general choice of turbos is 'safari' i'm sure you can find there website by googling them.

i also looked into various upgrades and like yourself the best price i found was the kit from pro comp. some folks on here dont seem to rate them, others do, so i dont know if they are too hot or not, probably ok and likely better than scorpion racings offerings. aussies will doubtless favour old man emu stuff, although it might also be worht looking into koni shocks if you have lots of cash and are upgrading the whole lot. they are apparantly very good. also if you lift it you can fit decent sized tyres on, circa 33" in diameter, 33 12.50's or 285/75 r16's.

if you need more info, after lots of searching i found a patrol forum, i can did out the lik for you. it is of course australia based, but i'm sure the folks there will be pretty helpful.

[weedy]

Chris
How come you got 110bhp on your 2.7 (D21?) and I only got 115bhp on my 4.2 Patrol......this should be interesting.
Alex


he has not it is a ld 27 out of a taxi and it has got 105 hp and 170 foot pound of trouch
it need a turbo for the hill

the d21 it only 87 horse on a good day but can be tune too 97 horse with easy

[alex]

Thanks Callum
I`m on two of those Oz forums every night. They`re super. So the GRs are turboed. I`ve never had my head under the bonnet of one. Still think Landys take some beating though especially if you`re in uk. I wouldn`t look down on the defender. I wanted a 110 tdi but the prices are o.t.t. I bought the Patrol and was still able to keep my 109sw.I am quite impressed with Patrol but it`s a better truck if you own one in oz. Aftermarket support.
Nice talking. Queensferry....... Nice spot.
Alex

[50420T]

Afternoon all, I've now got RR axles and power steering etc. ready to fit to my 2a. Just come back from tixover, having looked at lots of sj's it got me thinking about the posibility of using a flatter spring from a toyota or whatever, and putting the axles on spring over stylee.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't this get over the track rod problem, give better ground clearance keeping the springs up out the way, and possibly give a better ride from the flat springs.

Any idea's, comments lad's? I'm by no means an experienced landy owner, so feel free to shoot me down if this is a crap suggestion, just an Idea though.

Tata

50420t

[weedy]

you can put the spring on top of the axle the steering bar are clear yes but the props start get funny angle then

i have disign a top mount for the steering arms so they can be fitted to teh frount of the axle like a serse i will show you when they are finished

[50420T]

Evening Weedy, well, I very muck look forward to seeing your new master creation, hope it all works out mate.

With regards spring over mate, I know it's all horrible angles and silly ride heights with normal springs, but I was thinking if you used the flatter springs from a dihatsu etc, this would get rid of a lot of this unwanted height.

Just thinking out loud really, cant help thinking that it could be done sucessfully? Who know's till you try it heh.

tata chap

[marc]

saw this mod on a landy in past where rangie axles on series he had left off rear track rod and fitted front track rod as for series but then welded on an eye to take drag link from steering relay. would send pic but not sure how as only first message I have posted. marc

[owen]

Weedy has got round this idea alreadyJust gotta wait to see it happen on chrisIOM's SII

[Kyzer]

The Manx lads have already fabricated a solution to the track rod problem as told earlier in this thread, and it worked well enough for Chris to drive his 2a from the Isle to Billing and back recently with no trouble. However, they are working on an improved solution as there are a couple of problems with the current setup:
1) the rod is vulnrable to rocks and other objects protuding from the ground when off road, as Chris has already proven
2) on full lock the leaf springs can foul the rod
3) there is some doubt whether the MOT man would pass such a setup

[zaphodbb]

Kyzer/Chris{iom}/Weedy
Any further developments?
I will be following your lead(s) shortly - already have a pair of RRC's axles part stripped ready to chop about. I'm looking into the steering drag link problem from a different direction: The series hubs have a bolt-on arm/lower swivel pin, I'm going to compare the 'pin' dimensions between the RRC and series to see how different (or similar) they are - it may just be a case of drilling/tapping the hubs to take the bolts for series arm (and chopping-off the exsisting ones) - not a big job for a local machine shop. Even if the pins are different, a bit of turning on a lathe/milling should do it.
Will let you know.

[owen]

Try PM'ing Weedy
as he has succesfully done this on an 88" which made it to billing and back

[Millsy]

A friend of mine has fitted RR axles to his Lightweight,

http://www.orrp.com/smf/index.php?topic=12985.0

http://www.orrp.com/smf/index.php?topic=14872.msg237070#msg237070

No dodgy steering links just a couple of special U bolts. Jubbly.

[weedy]

Kyzer/Chris{iom}/Weedy
Any further developments?
I will be following your lead(s) shortly - already have a pair of RRC's axles part stripped ready to chop about. I'm looking into the steering drag link problem from a different direction: The series hubs have a bolt-on arm/lower swivel pin, I'm going to compare the 'pin' dimensions between the RRC and series to see how different (or similar) they are - it may just be a case of drilling/tapping the hubs to take the bolts for series arm (and chopping-off the exsisting ones) - not a big job for a local machine shop. Even if the pins are different, a bit of turning on a lathe/milling should do it.
Will let you know.

i am makeing a plate that fit on the top swivel pin and make the steering rod go to the front of the axle like a series which should stop us from bending them off and we can use a s111 rod and some rose joints
will let have some pics when i have some

[zaphodbb]

That sounds interesting Weedy
Been a bit ill (caught a bug off the kids) so not had time (or energy) to follow-up my suggestion - may be next week.

[Kyzer]

Weeds - if these plates turn out to be mustard, can u add them to my shopping cart for Billing next year? Or possibly even Easter as, depending on my housing status at the time, I am planning a camping trip to the island funded by the profits from pulling Novas out of ditches when the roads get icy this winter :D

Keep it moist.

-- Kyzer

[West4x4]

Any news on the axels?

[zaphodbb]

Hi Weedy/Chris/Kyzer

"i am makeing a plate that fit on the top swivel pin and make the steering rod go to the front of the axle like a series which should stop us from bending them off and we can use a s111 rod and some rose joints
will let have some pics when i have some"

Will this affect the bearing pre-load (shim arrangement) on the top swivel?

Not much progress from my end - I've started to strip on of the RRC hubs (this one has a pitted ball so needs taking apart anyway), but other jobs keep getting in my way (the missus is whinging about prioritys :( ).

One thing I missed and has kindly been pointed out to me, is that series lower steering arms point outwards, whereas RRC (etc) point inwards - to this end, does anyone have or know where I can get hold of LH steering series lower arms? (to see if fitting them on opposite sides would work).

Also, anyone know what the difference is between series V8 arms and 'normal' ones? (noticed the different part No.s in the parts book)

[weedy]

the plate will not chage the pre load as they will just bolt on top of the king pins with longer bolts
not had chance to do these yet with the big nissan eating clutches and my "B project i done have much time to do out ese

[zaphodbb]

Any news Weedy?

All my times been taken up with exam revision.
I've bought a pair of series lower arms to try but not had time to progress any further.

Regards

Kevin

[P00DLE]

no news yet ive been playing with my raro and weeds 2b fc has been keeping him busy as soon as the raro is finished i will look into it again should be sorted by the end of feb hopefully.cant wait to be able to properly offroad it again. temp fix has now lasted over a year of hard driving so i think we can safely say it works just a little exposed and fragile as the rock i hit offroading showed.

[weedy]

as chris say my 2B is takeing all my time as i will be going to billing in it

[zaphodbb]

Well, it's a year down the line, and I've managed to do zilch to my IIA. (although I have bought some bits for it)
How did you guys get on?

[P00DLE]

we have had some plates made u now.

i think they are a little short but will do for a first test run. just need to get a pair of rose joints and we are ready to go. will sort this in a litte over 2 weeks when i get back from hols.

the plan is a pair of plates bolted to the kingpin at the top mimicing the shape of the normal arms at the rear. these will be angled down and fitted with a normal range rover track rod and rose joints.

the plate that we had cut is 13mm thick.

[P00DLE]

quick update,

first set of laser cut plates were too short and had too much stagger in them.

made a new set from 10mm thick flat plat approx 2inch thick and 10 inch long as shown in picture.

the 2 holes together are for the bolts for the top kingpin you need longer bolts i used high tensile cap head bolts which were about £1 ea but worth it for the piece of mind and ther other hole needs to be tapered to allow the standard rod end to fit or you could replace these with rose joints if you can find them in the right size i havent been able to yet.

the notch is to allow the plate to fit around the brake shield, and tyhis conversion allows you to use the standard steering rod.

it has taken us a while to get this sorted but this is the best soloution we could come up with and it works very well i have been using it for about 4 months now without issue.

[Kyzer]

No more head shaking from the shorty then? :D That was worrying to follow down the road!

I've officially put my conversion to bed due to a house move and nowhere to store the axles. Going to (when funds allow) get wheel spacers to gain the extra track and keep on top of the (to be fair, pretty effective) drum brakes. Maybe if I do a disc conversion on my 109 in the long term I'll put the six pot brakes on it but I've got a house to fix up now so don't imagine that will be for a while.

Looking forward to seeing the shorty in action off-road again in the future - just tell Weedy to make some roof-sliders for himself first! :D

[P00DLE]

No more head shaking from the shorty then? :D That was worrying to follow down the road!

I've officially put my conversion to bed due to a house move and nowhere to store the axles. Going to (when funds allow) get wheel spacers to gain the extra track and keep on top of the (to be fair, pretty effective) drum brakes. Maybe if I do a disc conversion on my 109 in the long term I'll put the six pot brakes on it but I've got a house to fix up now so don't imagine that will be for a while.

Looking forward to seeing the shorty in action off-road again in the future - just tell Weedy to make some roof-sliders for himself first! :D

there is a slight shake at an indicated 33 - 35 ish but that is nearer 40 actuall speed think i will have to rebuild the swivels at some point. other than that the conversion i sweet as a nut and we reckon we could do the entire thing in under a day now

[zaphodbb]

Hi All

Been upto other things (mainly studying - only 2 more years to go, groan...) at the expense of doing nothing to the IIA - the only upside is that it doesn't seem to be deteriorating any further!

This is the first time I've been back to this site for over a year and was pleased to see that Weedy & P00DLE have licked the steering problem - good work guys, are you planning to come to any of the shows this year as I'd love to see the setup myself?

Cheers

[P00DLE]

i will be at billing but in my range rover as the series needs a clutch, got o look at my kingpins so when i do i will take lots of photos of it all in pieces

[tdi200]

Just had a look here and found that you are mounting arms to the top 2 swivel pin bolts on a rangie axle. You are going to be very disappointed with what i have to say, those bolts are not up to the task of handling steering input forces, be warned. You will at some point have a failure of the said bolts. Sorry for bearing the bad news but whizzing down the road at 70mph in a landy with a steering holding on a string is a bad idea.

THOSE BOLTS WILL NOT HOLD UP, PLEASE RETHINK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!

If you do not belive what i say, present your modification to an engineer and see what the forces involved are. A clear comparason to a series steering arm mounted to the swivel is enough to tell you that you should at least copy that. Even series steering arm bolts/studs tend to work loose with rough play, i shudder to think what will happen with just 2 bolts of an even inferior diameter!

I would also point out that from the drawing of that arm you have already created a weak point by putting a notch in the arm.

I have done the coiler to leafer axle conversion by using a LHD swivel and relocating the steering rod to the front. It is by far the safest and strongest option. Unless you put spacers under the axles like others have done to keep the rod at the back of the axle.

I hope i did not ruin anyones day but i felt i should have pointed out the risks of such a modification.

Regards Grem

[foggy3061]

This may well be of interest for you guys, Tillees Land Rover Centre have successfully fitted coil axles to a series land rover:-

http://www.tilleeslandrovercentre.co.uk/gallery.htm

Its been featured in LRO at some point. They look to have used a left hand drive swivel housing in order to put the drag link infront of the axle (as suggested above).

The steering link on to the drag link is intersting tho'!

[rusty_wingnut]

This may well be of interest for you guys, Tillees Land Rover Centre have successfully fitted coil axles to a series land rover:-

http://www.tilleeslandrovercentre.co.uk/gallery.htm

Its been featured in LRO at some point. They look to have used a left hand drive swivel housing in order to put the drag link infront of the axle (as suggested above).

The steering link on to the drag link is intersting tho'!

that looks very dangerous. not even a web behind the outward bracket, and i bet it bends the parent rod when under heavy loads.... :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[craig lambert]

And whats the betting that what is basically a defender on leaf springs is listed as tax exempt!!!!

craig

[foggy3061]

that looks very dangerous. not even a web behind the outward bracket, and i bet it bends the parent rod when under heavy loads.... :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Thats exactly what i was pondering! I think you would need a solid, larger diameter drag link for that arrangement to be anywhere near strong enough for off road use.

Yeah, i'd say it'll be tax exempt too, but in todays ever more expensive world, who can blame him! :)

[P00DLE]

Just had a look here and found that you are mounting arms to the top 2 swivel pin bolts on a rangie axle. You are going to be very disappointed with what i have to say, those bolts are not up to the task of handling steering input forces, be warned. You will at some point have a failure of the said bolts. Sorry for bearing the bad news but whizzing down the road at 70mph in a landy with a steering holding on a string is a bad idea.

THOSE BOLTS WILL NOT HOLD UP, PLEASE RETHINK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!

If you do not belive what i say, present your modification to an engineer and see what the forces involved are. A clear comparason to a series steering arm mounted to the swivel is enough to tell you that you should at least copy that. Even series steering arm bolts/studs tend to work loose with rough play, i shudder to think what will happen with just 2 bolts of an even inferior diameter!

I would also point out that from the drawing of that arm you have already created a weak point by putting a notch in the arm.

I have done the coiler to leafer axle conversion by using a LHD swivel and relocating the steering rod to the front. It is by far the safest and strongest option. Unless you put spacers under the axles like others have done to keep the rod at the back of the axle.

I hope i did not ruin anyones day but i felt i should have pointed out the risks of such a modification.

Regards Grem


not ruining my day i know this works although not perfect.

the notch isnt as it apears in my simple dia it is mearly a nick gas axed out.
we are now planning a reinforcing bracket from this to the steering stop bolt.
dropping the box tonight to fit clutch tomorrow it is half stripped atm and will see if while im underneath i can get some pics if i can find my compact cam, dont think the slr will work under there.

[Snagger]

I'm folowing this with interest, because I'm considering fitting defender axles to my 109.

I have to say that I agree with Grem - I think using the two small bolts for the swivel pin as steering arm locators, as opposed to the four sturdy bolts as LR inteneded, is nothing short of dangerous. It might be intact right now, but I'd wager those bolts are already suffering metal fatigue, and the WILL shear one day. I hope you don't kill anyone one they do, but please keep that car on the IOM until that day.;)

Grem - using a LHD swivel housing to put the track rod in front sounds like a neat solution, but doesn't that cause the different wheel pivot amount to be reversed, ie, the inboard wheel swings less than the outboard, due to the fact that the arms are pointing outward rather than inwards? And how did you connect the drag link?

[weedy]

we have change the bolts for 10.5 tensel stenght instead of 8.8 and the fact it sat on top of the swivel pin take the load of the bolts there a a stiffern to go on it and i may weld it to the swivel pin yet it got to work as i am putting these on the 2 b next

[Snagger]

The stronger bolts will help, but you still have much less than 50% of the sectional area for the fastenings. The forces that go through them are very heavy, and they're subject to a lot of vibration. I would not be at all happy driving the vehicle or sharing a road with it.

Frankly, this is the issue that is still making me consider fitting Zeus disc kits on both standard axles - swapping the rear axle looks straight forward, but finding a strong solution for the steering is a headache.

I'm also concerned about the diff angle. Series diffs are meant to be horizontal, but RR and Defender diffs are inclined. That'll screw up the front prop geometry. You can't just rotate the axle to level the diff because that'll stuff up the castor angles...:(

Is the diff in a different lateral position on the coilers (nearer the spring)? If it's offset to the right by the same amount, I might consider having an adapter collar made to allow me to fit RR swivels, hubs and half shafts to the Series axle, correcting the castor at the same time.

[littlelegs]

I'm folowing this with interest, because I'm considering fitting defender axles to my 109.

Grem - using a LHD swivel housing to put the track rod in front sounds like a neat solution, but doesn't that cause the different wheel pivot amount to be reversed, ie, the inboard wheel swings less than the outboard, due to the fact that the arms are pointing outward rather than inwards? And how did you connect the drag link?

I've only just come across this thread so not fully up to speed as what is being done or what problems there are but having seen the photos of the track rod fitted in front of the axle I share Snaggers concern regarding the Ackerman steering angles, the track rod arms are fitted to the rear of the front axle so that they generally line up with the centre of the rear axle to give the correct turning angles. The drag link arms are not designed for this, also being a different angle and if the track rod is fitted at the front to them, they would reverse the proper steering angles plus some more and cause steering and handling problems plus severe tyre wear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

[weedy]

thank you you both right and yet it seem to work on poodle`s truck it need more reinforceing but it working well . as for the diff angle well i changed that baddly for poodle to drive the dam thing like a rally car yes this has put more angle on the prop but as of yet we not broke one and it turn in is inpressive snagger you will be the boy to make the th coler it put the rr ends and shaft on a s truck go for it

[littlelegs]

I've only just come across this thread so not fully up to speed as what is being done or what problems there are but having seen the photos of the track rod fitted in front of the axle I share Snaggers concern regarding the Ackerman steering angles, the track rod arms are fitted to the rear of the front axle so that they generally line up with the centre of the rear axle to give the correct turning angles. The drag link arms are not designed for this, also being a different angle and if the track rod is fitted at the front to them, they would reverse the proper steering angles plus some more and cause steering and handling problems plus severe tyre wear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

I don't want to spoil your fun but just to add to this, I take it that you are all aware of the construction and use regulations, type approval and the need to obtain approval for modifications such as home made steering arms for rebuilt vehicles etc.?

http://www.woodfield5.demon.co.uk/docs/p22_sva.htm

http://www.millisperformancecars.co.uk/sva_manual_draft.pdf

[rusty_wingnut]

a chap on ORRP came out with a much neater solution

[Snagger]

I was worried that the Ackerman angles would be reversed, with the wheel on the inside of the turn swinging less than the outboard wheel, but thinking more about it in bed last night (as you do;)), I realised I was thinking of the Defender track rod arms, which extend outward towards thier ends, and would reverse the Ackeman angles if they were fitted swapped from side to side, with the track rod arms forward.

The drag link arms extend inwards towards their tips, just like the arms on Series swivels, so the Ackerman angles would not be reversed at all by using swivel housings from LHD and RHD axles together to get the track rod at the front. I doubt the Ackerman angles would be perfect, but the expeience of those who have done this seems to suggest they're well within useable tollerances. So, that's one problem solved.

That still leaves the issue of how to attach the drag link and my concern over the diff pinion axis inclination.

I have seen suggestions on other forums of copying the setup on other leaf sprung off roaders, like Toyotas and Suzukis, with "a specially made track rod with a tapered hole which the drag ling attaches to". I haven't seen what was being described, but I interpret that as meaning a track rod with a thick enough dioameter or a fitting towards one end that can be drilled and reamed to accept the drag link's rod end in the same way as the swivel arm would normall take. Maybe a Series track rod with a 4" steel block, with an external threaded section to screw into the end of the rod and an internally threaded hole at the other to accept the rod end, cross drilled and reamed for the drag link conection?

That still leaves the diff pinion axis issue. In normal 2wd driving, this should make little difference on the free wheeling prop, but will there be any significant issues in 4wd? Prop vibration from mis-matched UJ deflection angles (non-parallel prop flanges) usually occur at 50-60mph, which we're unlikely to reach in 4wd conditions, but has anyone encountered front prop vibration after this conversion? And do the rop and diff clear the engine bay contents under all conditions with this higher diff pinion position?

[weedy]

I don't want to spoil your fun but just to add to this, I take it that you are all aware of the construction and use regulations, type approval and the need to obtain approval for modifications such as home made steering arms for rebuilt vehicles etc.?

http://www.woodfield5.demon.co.uk/docs/p22_sva.htm

http://www.millisperformancecars.co.uk/sva_manual_draft.pdf

yes my friend we no all about this but here on the island we don`t to worry about that as it dose not need to see an mot in it life

[weedy]

the diff angle is mad and yes there better ways of doing it .the track rods ends i am going to change to rose joints to help with the load

[Snagger]

yes my friend we no all about this but here on the island we don`t to worry about that as it dose not need to see an mot in it lifeThat could be read as "we don't need to worry about the law or others' safety, because the car will never be inspected". The vehicle still needs to conform to standards to be safe, and also to avoid invalidating the insurance.

[littlelegs]

I was worried that the Ackerman angles would be reversed, with the wheel on the inside of the turn swinging less than the outboard wheel, but thinking more about it in bed last night (as you do;)), I realised I was thinking of the Defender track rod arms, which extend outward towards thier ends, and would reverse the Ackeman angles if they were fitted swapped from side to side, with the track rod arms forward.

The drag link arms extend inwards towards their tips, just like the arms on Series swivels, so the Ackerman angles would not be reversed at all by using swivel housings from LHD and RHD axles together to get the track rod at the front. I doubt the Ackerman angles would be perfect, but the expeience of those who have done this seems to suggest they're well within useable tollerances. So, that's one problem solved.



If you use a front track rod then the track rod arms must splay out to line up through the swivels and the centre of the back axle and this is not possible because they would normally foul the wheel! If the front arms toe in then the angles will be reversed. Just because some people have done it and put up with it claiming a sharper turning circle on loose surfaces, doesn't mean it's right, might not hurt off road but certainly will on the highway! A slight difference is no problem but complete reversal is.

[Snagger]

If you use a front track rod then the track rod arms must splay out to line up through the swivels and the centre of the back axle and this is not possible because they would normally foul the wheel! If the front arms toe in then the angles will be reversed. Just because some people have done it and put up with it claiming a sharper turning circle on loose surfaces, doesn't mean it's right, might not hurt off road but certainly will on the highway! A slight difference is no problem but complete reversal is.

What I was thinking, though, is that though the track rod arms at the rear splay outwards, I think the drag link arms on the front are canted inwards, just like on a Series.

Whenever the arms are in fornt of the axle, they must come towards eachother in order to be used as track rod arms, or be divergent if behind the axle. The rough angle of convergence is important, but it sounds like it doesn't need to be accurate to more than a couple of degrees, otherwise LR would have to make all sorts of different swivel housings to cater for standard rims, Wolf rims, alloys and all different tyre sizes that come as factory fit options on them, and wheel spacers would cause merry hell.

If my recollection that the drag ling arm is canted inwards is wrong, then I'm back to square one, but the idea is that by retaining the RHD swivel on the left side (and its drag link arm), and fitting a RHD swivel to the right side (with a ne drag link arm there), then you have forward mounted, inward canted swivel arms similar to on the Series axles, just missing the second rod end hole for the drag link to attach to.

It's not the same as removing each swivel and fitting them to the opposite end so that the track rod arm is forward - that would indeed cause divergent arms and Ackerman problems.

[littlelegs]

:D
What I was thinking, though, is that though the track rod arms at the rear splay outwards, I think the drag link arms on the front are canted inwards, just like on a Series.

Whenever the arms are in fornt of the axle, they must come towards eachother in order to be used as track rod arms, or be divergent if behind the axle. The rough angle of convergence is important, but it sounds like it doesn't need to be accurate to more than a couple of degrees, otherwise LR would have to make all sorts of different swivel housings to cater for standard rims, Wolf rims, alloys and all different tyre sizes that come as factory fit options on them, and wheel spacers would cause merry hell.

If my recollection that the drag ling arm is canted inwards is wrong, then I'm back to square one, but the idea is that by retaining the RHD swivel on the left side (and its drag link arm), and fitting a RHD swivel to the right side (with a ne drag link arm there), then you have forward mounted, inward canted swivel arms similar to on the Series axles, just missing the second rod end hole for the drag link to attach to.

It's not the same as removing each swivel and fitting them to the opposite end so that the track rod arm is forward - that would indeed cause divergent arms and Ackerman problems.

I think you must be in a mucking fuddle over your splayings! :D Rear fitted track rod arms are always angled inwards to line up with the centre of the rear axle not as you say outwards, so to give the same angles if fitted in front they must be angle the opposite and outwards. The draglink at the front is angled inwards as you say but this is the wrong way and does not line up with the centre of the rear axle but outside the wheel track. Am I getting anywhere, your mind obviously wasn't on the job last night? :rolleyes::D

[Snagger]

:D

I think you must be in a mucking fuddle over your splayings! :D Rear fitted track rod arms are always angled inwards to line up with the centre of the rear axle not as you say outwards, so to give the same angles if fitted in front they must be angle the opposite and outwards. The draglink at the front is angled inwards as you say but this is the wrong way and does not line up with the centre of the rear axle but outside the wheel track. Am I getting anywhere, your mind obviously wasn't on the job last night? :rolleyes::D

You're right! The arms in front of the swivels need to have their rod end holes outboard of the swivel pin axis (whatever the shape and cant on the arms). I had thought it to be the other way round as I recalled the Series steering arms canting inwards. A quick look has confimed that my impression that the rod ends had to be inboard of the swivel pin axis is wrong - the track rod must be longer than the distance between the centres of the CV joints for this to work.

I still think that the exact angles are not critical - it only needs to be "in the ball park", as all the different wheel sizes, tyre sizes and spacers greatly affect off sets and thus scrubbing.

[littlelegs]

yes my friend we no all about this but here on the island we don`t to worry about that as it dose not need to see an mot in it life

It hasn't anything to do with the MOT but the vehicle still needs to comply with it's construction in Great Britain including the IOM so if you were to be involved in an accident... I'm not criticising your work but best to get it approved and be sure that it's safe, or at least someone else says it is! ;)

[Snagger]

It hasn't anything to do with the MOT but the vehicle still needs to comply with it's construction in Great Britain including the IOM so if you were to be involved in an accident... I'm not criticising your work You are, but constructively, with their safety in mind - there's nothing wrong in that!:) Land Rovers are over-engineered in most strength aspects, so the two bolts may be sufficient, but it's worth getting it checked by someone suitably qualified - lives are at stake.

[Snagger]

Right. I have just been taking a very close look at my 300Tdi RRC axle, which I assume is almost identical to the Defender version (except the steering damper location).

The track rod and drak link arms are definatley all canted inward, so the rear track rod is shorter than the CV-CV length. That means the track rod has to stay at the back to retain reasonable steering angles.

Now, there seens to be a little over an inch clearance between the diff nose and the track rod, so would that allow the rod to be lifted over the leaf springs?

Fitting spacers between the track rod ends and arms to lift the rod doesn't look like a good idea, but the drag link arm is significantly higher than the track rod arms. Would using an axle with LHD and RHD swivels (ie. both with drag link arms) swapped from side to side allow the track rod to pass under the diff nose and above the leaf springs? It might be a tight fit, but
it looks like it might be workable.

The drag link arms are slightly more canted than the track rod arms, giving a greater Ackerman effect, but with my offset 7"rims, or for others with wide rims or spacers, this would be a good thing.

This solution would also allow the use of the track rod arms, now in front of the swivel housings, to connect the drag link. I reckon the extra length required on the drag link would only be about 1/2-3/4", and may even be attainable within the adjustment limits of the standard rod.

[littlelegs]

Right. I have just been taking a very close look at my 300Tdi RRC axle, which I assume is almost identical to the Defender version (except the steering damper location).

The track rod and drak link arms are definatley all canted inward, so the rear track rod is shorter than the CV-CV length. That means the track rod has to stay at the back to retain reasonable steering angles.

Now, there seens to be a little over an inch clearance between the diff nose and the track rod, so would that allow the rod to be lifted over the leaf springs?

Fitting spacers between the track rod ends and arms to lift the rod doesn't look like a good idea, but the drag link arm is significantly higher than the track rod arms. Would using an axle with LHD and RHD swivels (ie. both with drag link arms) swapped from side to side allow the track rod to pass under the diff nose and above the leaf springs? It might be a tight fit, but
it looks like it might be workable.

The drag link arms are slightly more canted than the track rod arms, giving a greater Ackerman effect, but with my offset 7"rims, or for others with wide rims or spacers, this would be a good thing.

This solution would also allow the use of the track rod arms, now in front of the swivel housings, to connect the drag link. I reckon the extra length required on the drag link would only be about 1/2-3/4", and may even be attainable within the adjustment limits of the standard rod.

That certainly would be much better if it all fits and the only possible fly in the ointment I can see is assuming the castor angle is the same with reversed swivels then whether the drag link then remains in the same reversed position to clear everything, it may be lower with the castor angle taken into account. Probably something that needs to be tried.

[weedy]

opps

[weedy]

It hasn't anything to do with the MOT but the vehicle still needs to comply with it's construction in Great Britain including the IOM so if you were to be involved in an accident... I'm not criticising your work but best to get it approved and be sure that it's safe, or at least someone else says it is! ;)

yes my friend i unstand were your come form thank you

[weedy]

You are, but constructively, with their safety in mind - there's nothing wrong in that!:) Land Rovers are over-engineered in most strength aspects, so the two bolts may be sufficient, but it's worth getting it checked by someone suitably qualified - lives are at stake.


someone suitably qualified ok may i ask who you think would be qualified my friend

[weedy]

Right. I have just been taking a very close look at my 300Tdi RRC axle, which I assume is almost identical to the Defender version (except the steering damper location).

The track rod and drak link arms are definatley all canted inward, so the rear track rod is shorter than the CV-CV length. That means the track rod has to stay at the back to retain reasonable steering angles.

Now, there seens to be a little over an inch clearance between the diff nose and the track rod, so would that allow the rod to be lifted over the leaf springs?

Fitting spacers between the track rod ends and arms to lift the rod doesn't look like a good idea, but the drag link arm is significantly higher than the track rod arms. Would using an axle with LHD and RHD swivels (ie. both with drag link arms) swapped from side to side allow the track rod to pass under the diff nose and above the leaf springs? It might be a tight fit, but
it looks like it might be workable.

The drag link arms are slightly more canted than the track rod arms, giving a greater Ackerman effect, but with my offset 7"rims, or for others with wide rims or spacers, this would be a good thing.

This solution would also allow the use of the track rod arms, now in front of the swivel housings, to connect the drag link. I reckon the extra length required on the drag link would only be about 1/2-3/4", and may even be attainable within the adjustment limits of the standard rod.

have tryed that and if you use standard springs then yes this works if you use paras then when you get the axle on full drop the steering arm hit the spring

[P00DLE]

have tryed that and if you use standard springs then yes this works if you use paras then when you get the axle on full drop the steering arm hit the spring

which locks the steering and is loads of fun,

[littlelegs]

someone suitably qualified ok may i ask who you think would be qualified my friend

The IOM Department of Transport's Vehicle Inspectorate should be able to help.

[tdi200]

I'm folowing this with interest, because I'm considering fitting defender axles to my 109.

I have to say that I agree with Grem - I think using the two small bolts for the swivel pin as steering arm locators, as opposed to the four sturdy bolts as LR inteneded, is nothing short of dangerous. It might be intact right now, but I'd wager those bolts are already suffering metal fatigue, and the WILL shear one day. I hope you don't kill anyone one they do, but please keep that car on the IOM until that day.;)

Grem - using a LHD swivel housing to put the track rod in front sounds like a neat solution, but doesn't that cause the different wheel pivot amount to be reversed, ie, the inboard wheel swings less than the outboard, due to the fact that the arms are pointing outward rather than inwards? And how did you connect the drag link?

A simple solution which we used when converting the axle due to the steering problems was to drill new holes exactly behind the original drag link holes on both side, tapered to fit the ball joints, so we used the original hole for the drag link but had new holes made for the track rod. This modification was used by the safari racers to get a quicker steering ratio! So its more than tested.

This created another slight complication as when the track rod is relocated further back it will foul the diff pan, so we had to resort to a kinked track rod like a 101 or a coiled front salisbury. This also sorted a bit of the akerman back as we made the holes as closed to the edge as possible. The swivel arms are very beefey and there is ample space to do this type of modification but it is a bit more complex.

The simplest is to copy some of the jap and american factory setups, is a ball joint in which the treaded shank has a taper in it to accomodate the drag link ball joint, similar to the pic i attached (lhd version sorry)

IMO the akerman thingy is not that crucial as we are not driving formula one cars, all landrover products have the same akerman built into the axles irrelevant of the wheel base they are, and it seems they work well. I would be concerned about it if all the roads where always winding so you would be using full lock all the time.

Grem

[littlelegs]

A simple solution which we used when converting the axle due to the steering problems was to drill new holes exactly behind the original drag link holes on both side, tapered to fit the ball joints, so we used the original hole for the drag link but had new holes made for the track rod. This modification was used by the safari racers to get a quicker steering ratio! So its more than tested.

This created another slight complication as when the track rod is relocated further back it will foul the diff pan, so we had to resort to a kinked track rod like a 101 or a coiled front salisbury. This also sorted a bit of the akerman back as we made the holes as closed to the edge as possible. The swivel arms are very beefey and there is ample space to do this type of modification but it is a bit more complex.

The simplest is to copy some of the jap and american factory setups, is a ball joint in which the treaded shank has a taper in it to accomodate the drag link ball joint, similar to the pic i attached (lhd version sorry)

IMO the akerman thingy is not that crucial as we are not driving formula one cars, all landrover products have the same akerman built into the axles irrelevant of the wheel base they are, and it seems they work well. I would be concerned about it if all the roads where always winding so you would be using full lock all the time.

Grem

The Ackerman principle is taught along with other steering geometry on any motor vehicle engineering course so unless it's fully understood, mistakes will be made. Using drag links and a front track rod on a RR axle will cause reversed Ackerman angles which will cause the wheels to toe in considerably when turning and scrub the tyres and effect the handling, they should toe out to follow the turning circle and prevent wear, this is important on the highway!

The correct manufacturers Ackerman angles are not critical as you say and can be altered for best effect as on racing cars etc. but reversing them completely is not good engineering and compromises the whole project, otherwise the manufacturer needn't bother to get it right in the first place!

If the vehicle is used for racing or just off road then messing about with the steering geometry is not going to matter too much but on the road as I believe the UK people will be using, this could have a disasterous result or frequent new tyres. I'm just glad you're in another country! :eek::D

[Snagger]

The Ackerman principle is taught along with other steering geometry on any motor vehicle engineering course so unless it's fully understood, mistakes will be made. Using drag links and a front track rod on a RR axle will cause reversed Ackerman angles which will cause the wheels to toe in considerably when turning and scrub the tyres and effect the handling, they should toe out to follow the turning circle and prevent wear, this is important on the highway!

The correct manufacturers Ackerman angles are not critical as you say and can be altered for best effect as on racing cars etc. but reversing them completely is not good engineering and compromises the whole project, otherwise the manufacturer needn't bother to get it right in the first place!

If the vehicle is used for racing or just off road then messing about with the steering geometry is not going to matter too much but on the road as I believe the UK people will be using, this could have a disasterous result or frequent new tyres. I'm just glad you're in another country! :eek::DThat's pretty much how I feel about the project - I don't want any bodges on my vehicle. It's clear that the track rod has to stay behind the diff.

A friend has sent me a photo of an 88 with this set up, using parabolics. With the diff set at an angle where the front UJ is nearly straight, he has good clearance of the rod and springs, and the castor angle seems to be fine, by all accounts. That was using the standard track arms, not nessing about to get the track rod closer to the diff.

[Keeper_of_Tess]

That's pretty much how I feel about the project - I don't want any bodges on my vehicle. It's clear that the track rod has to stay behind the diff.

A friend has sent me a photo of an 88 with this set up, using parabolics. With the diff set at an angle where the front UJ is nearly straight, he has good clearance of the rod and springs, and the castor angle seems to be fine, by all accounts. That was using the standard track arms, not nessing about to get the track rod closer to the diff.

Snagger,

I'm sorry if I missed it: could you post a scan of your friend's picture? I'm getting to the stage where I have to decide what to do about my front axle set-up. I'm ending towards the raised axle blocks as per the OORP pictures...

[Snagger]

You didn't miss it. Here is the picture - you'll see that the front UJ is almost straight, and this would cause vibration at high speeds in 4wd, but retaining the standard Series transmission should allow the back end of the prop to free-wheel under all high speed use, so UJ wear and other transmission damage as discussed in the "raising a Series" thread should not be an issue. He has a 1" cleaeranc between the track rod and springs and says the steering was a little lively at high speed (he later fitted a power steering system, using the 6-bolt box that apparently needs less chassis modification). Another friend who has done this mod in has 1/2" spring clearance (axle hanging unsupported) and this gave a greater castor angle than standard, so he has stronger self-centring at speed than with the original axle. Maybe a spring-rod gap of about 3/4" would set the castor angle such that the self centring would be about the same as with the Series axle? The latter friend did say he found the slighlty increased self centring advantageous, and given that my Tdi allows more high speed driving, I may well follow his example.

[Snagger]

The picture above is of an 88", and shows how he used 1-ton shackles to overcome the issue of the right side spring mount interfering with the diff casing, and both spring mounts having to be deepened as a result, effectively lowering the front of the vehicle slightly. This vehicle is used as a trailler, and though the spring clearance doesn't look much, he says the track rod never gets close to the springs, even of full articulation.

[rutger2004]

Hello all... I'm new to this forum. I too am interested in putting Range Rover axles under my 109. Has anyone ever seen or heard of free wheeling hubs fitted to Range Rover axles. For road use, the lack of free wheeling hubs seems to be the only down side to this conversion.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Brian

[Snagger]

free wheeling hubs are of next to no benefit anyway - they have no appreciable effect on performance or fuel economy. Some people claim lighter steering, but I can't understand why they should have such an effect. I, like many others, found that they were just cumbersome, ugly lumps that were prone to catching rocks and stumps, leaking oil, and requiring me to get out in the slippery mud to re-engage them. They went in the bin, and I'll never have a set again.

However, you can get FWH for some 90/110 axles. They're probably quite rare and very expensive.

[A C H]

There is a chap doing this on the series 2 club forum,and he is doing a good job.

http://www.lrs2c.com/forum/index.php?topic=27374.0

[Snagger]

Koos and I have been discussing various aspects of the mod and the fitting of anti-roll bars on another forum. The back axle is relatively simple. I'm looking forward to seeing how he does the front, though we have been sharing ideas on that one. I hope they work, or Im going to be miserable when I get to it.

[A C H]

Deuce on the S2 club forum has got the axles on, not a bad job. I have nicked some pictures.

[Snagger]

Koos set his castor angle to 5 degrees, using 25mm between the spring top and the lowest part of the axle tube. A standard 3 degree castor with that spacing will give slightly more track rod clearance. He did use 1-Ton shackles to lower the back end of the front springs.

[moore101]

still quite new to this forum but have been reading this thread due to wanting to do this conversion on my lightweight. have found a thread on another forum and to me it seems blindingly simple.

http://www.orrp.com/smf/index.php?topic=12985.0

can someone see any faults with it? apart from the possibility of losing a bit of ground clearance under ubolt plates but not if paras are narrower. the only thing not mentioned is what angle the diff is in relation to standard axle but i think a double cardon front prop would probably sort out any problems with angles.

AL

[Snagger]

You shouldn't need a double cardan front prop, after all, the props on RRC, D1 and Defender are all plain UJs. The front UJ will be almost straight, while the rear UJ will run at a lesser angle than normal because the diff pinion is higher up. the only problem is potential vibration from the prop flanges being out of parallel. This was resolved in the coilers by setting the UJs 22.5 degrees apart (rotationally), so I will be doing the smae thing.

A double cardan could be used, buit it's expensive, and would require a custom prop and replacement of the transfer box output pinion or an adapter, as the DII double cardan shaft has a different bolt pitch and dimensions.

[moore101]

The front UJ will be almost straight, while the rear UJ will run at a lesser angle than normal because the diff pinion is higher up. the only problem is potential vibration from the prop flanges being out of parallel. This was resolved in the coilers by setting the UJs 22.5 degrees apart (rotationally), so I will be doing the smae thing.

my gearbox sits nose up with the v8 mounts i have (my engine sits higher up which has actually helped with clearance at the front but required more bulkhead mods and i think it looks a bit better than sat low down in the engine bay so dont mind) which means that none of my flanges are in parallel. is there a way to work out how much the ujs need to be out of rotation? or is it going to be trial and error to get rid of the vibration?

but apart from the vibrations from prop shafts is there a reason why this particular example of the modification isnt better than any others seen?

AL

[Snagger]

my gearbox sits nose up with the v8 mounts i have (my engine sits higher up which has actually helped with clearance at the front but required more bulkhead mods and i think it looks a bit better than sat low down in the engine bay so dont mind) which means that none of my flanges are in parallel. is there a way to work out how much the ujs need to be out of rotation? or is it going to be trial and error to get rid of the vibration?

but apart from the vibrations from prop shafts is there a reason why this particular example of the modification isnt better than any others seen?

ALThere is a mathematic formula that I once saw in an off road vehicle magazine article about prop shafts, but I have no recollection of the formula or the magazine. Sorry.:( A prop shaft manufacturer like Bailey Morris may be able to give you some good advice.

[black ranger]

Hi snagger,
have you put range rover axles on your landie yet?
Matt

[Snagger]

No, but the project has started, as per the latest blog update: http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/archives/1338

I have another recent entry detailing exactly how I plan to do both axles.

[landymike]

Few questions, how does it affect tax exempt status fitting range rover axles? does it count as they are still on leaf springs?

I was going to fit some (have a good pair on a breaker here), wanted to do the spring over though instead of under, its going to throw all sorts of problems up, so i may go down the route of hilux axles as i have a pair of them as well. Its time that figs it up for me!!
Wish i could spend more time on the landy, roll on summer!:rolleyes:

[Snagger]

Few questions, how does it affect tax exempt status fitting range rover axles? does it count as they are still on leaf springs?

I was going to fit some (have a good pair on a breaker here), wanted to do the spring over though instead of under, its going to throw all sorts of problems up, so i may go down the route of hilux axles as i have a pair of them as well. Its time that figs it up for me!!
Wish i could spend more time on the landy, roll on summer!:rolleyes:
I am retaining the original chassis without alteration, the transmission and suspension.

The engine has already been changed for a Tdi, and I plan to fit PAS using a P38 box (no cutting of the front cross member, unlike with the Defender/RRC/Discovery units), so those points would be lost. However, the after-market PAS kit is an accessory to the standard system, so if you used that, the steering points should be retained.

I think going SOA may cause you to lose the suspension points, and it will cause you some trouble on connecting the drag link with standard relay and drop arms. I think it'll make the vehicle too tall to be useful, to be honest, unless you fit very flat springs or raise their mounting positions in relation to the chassis (which may lose the chassis' VIN points too). I have never understood the desire for such conversions, as the road handling becomes awful, parking in town impossible, green laning restricted by overhanging trees and bridges, and side slop ability becomes minimal, all with no increase in ground clearance of the diffs. Portal axles are a different matter...

[Snagger]

Working on a rear axle (this one a 110 Salisbury rear axle, but the job is the same if working on a Rover rear axle):

http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/archives/1338 and http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/archives/1354