UK -Kenya 20??

[kevinrbeech]

Hi All,
I'm thinking ahead to my next "big" trip and am looking for advice from anyone that has actually done what I'm planning or is planning a similar trip themselves.

Within the next three to four years (hopefully) I want to drive from UK to Kenya, I want to do a safari but want to drive my own car there.

It is all a bit sketchy at the moment, I'll arrive in Africa via Tunisia as I've driven there before, not sure whether I'll go from Marseille or somewhere in Italy yet, plenty of time for those decissions though.
Next, Lybia, Sudan, Ethiopia then Kenya, stop around three weeks then return home. I'm expecting to take about three months.
As yet, apart from the threat of abduction or terrorist attack, there is nothing to stop it from happening, oh, and the small issue of money.
The plan is to enter Africa as early as possible in the trip as the cost of virtually everything is about a third of that in Europe.
Ok, I also know I have to suffer loads of needles, and there are times that the weather is too bad to consider Ethiopia, but is there anything else that I'm missing at this early stage of my plans?
Cheers,
Kevin

[sv130]

Hi mate
I,m not really sure but I think you have to go through Egypt after Lybia, as I,m pretty sure theres no legal border to cross between Lybia and Sudan.
Although its primarily a bikers site have a look here mate

The HUBB (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/)

Theres loads of info that will help you.

Gaz

[kevinrbeech]

Hi mate
I,m not really sure but I think you have to go through Egypt after Lybia, as I,m pretty sure theres no legal border to cross between Lybia and Sudan.
Although its primarily a bikers site have a look here mate

The HUBB (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/)

Theres loads of info that will help you.

Gaz

Hi Gaz, yeah, you're right, I missed it out in my excitement, only decided that this was going to happen 2 days ago so the initial posts were a bit rushed.
The HUBB is indeed an excellent place for the info and I'm scanning the pages regularly. There is loads of info about on the web re South Africa, and the western routes however, there's not so much about the trip that I want to do. To be honest, the main reason is I want to go on a safari, to see amimals, but don't want to spend £6000 on a 3 week trip when I can use that sort of cash to fund a 3 month one, and still get to see the animals.
Cheers, for the reply,
Kevin

[Marc Lurie]

but is there anything else that I'm missing at this early stage of my plans?

Yup. Rule No. 1 of African travel: Never make too many plans. They WILL all change anyway. :)

Seriously, if you make too many rigid plans to be at a certain place at a certain date, then you will run into problems. A start date and an end date can be adhered to (most times:)) but inbetween dates are very difficult to stick to.

BTW, I'd strongly recommend spending time in Uganda. It's beautiful and very well worth the visit.

Egypt is a problem because getting foreign vehicles in and out is difficult and expensive.

[Marc Lurie]

, the main reason is I want to go on a safari,

In that case, you really should do the extra distance and come through Tanzania, Zambia and South Africa.

[kevinrbeech]

Hi Marc,
Yeah, I know I should do SA, but......
This trip is my taster for just packing up and leaving the UK for, err, forever, maybe?
If everything was to fall into place then I would possibly do exactly that, however, this trip is on a limited budget.
I've done Tunisia several times, as said before, and I'm really into the sit and wait attitude. I love the remote parts and I think that I'm now at an age, and frame of mind, to tollerate most of the awkward situations that Africa can throw at me. SA may be just a little too far for this one though.
So, if Egypt is a big deal what are the tricks to doing it?
Regards,
Kevin
Btw, the only plans are the route, ie countries, and time, around 3 months, maybe 4.

[sv130]

Egypt is a great place to visit.. sooo much history and culture.
We,ve only been there on package hols, but we,ve been 9 times.I have been in their convoys of coaches cars and minibuses that they insist you use in trips to the Red Sea etc and seen some very eratic driving but you can always just drive along at your own speed ... at the back.
They will insist you join the convoy down to Aswan.
From all the posts I,ve read about entry formalities into Egypt it doesn,t really look like theres a quick or easy way in, if the guys at the border work quicker it just means more work for them. ha. One thing is for certain, if they can find a way to get a little extra cash off you, then they won,t hesitate to try.
I suggest allowing an extra week in Egypt and that way when you do get through you won,t be in a rush down to the ferry as Charlie and Ewan seemed to be.
Just take your time (and a betablocker or two)

Gaz

[leeds]

Remember the Carnet costs. Egypt requires a 800% value of vehicle for the carnet

Nicked from the RAC website

SECURITY RATE TABLE @ OCTOBER 2006
The amount required by RAC depends on the rates of customs duty and taxes in the countries visited but
is always a multiple
of the value of the vehicle. E.g. £5,000 value x 150% = £7,500 (South Africa)
Egypt 800%
Africa (excluding Egypt/Kenya) 150%
Iran, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal 500%
Japan/New Zealand 150%
Kenya/Libya/Middle East & Far East
(e.g. Singapore/Malaysia)
200%
Australia 150%
+ £5,000 Vehicle Import
Approval supplement (cars
only)
South America 300%





More information HERE (http://www.rac.co.uk/web/know-how/going-on-a-journey/driving-abroad/carnet-de-passages.htm)

Regards


Brendan

[kevinrbeech]

Hi Gaz,
Yeah, thanks for the suggestion, I must admit I really only considered driving through the countries enroute at first, but as you say there'll be plenty to see, I may even strap the windsurfer to the car for day when I'm not travelling. The convoy is no longer a requirement however the trip has to be done in the hours of daylight, however all that could be different again when I actually get around to going. :)

Brendan, 800% that is loads, good job the car is only going to be worth about £500 by the time I travel then. :D

All useful info though, keep em coming.

Kevin

[AntC]

Remember the Carnet costs. Egypt requires a 800% value of vehicle for the carnet.

We are planning a similar trip next year and I've been told that taking out an Indemnity Insurance policy can be a cheaper way of getting your vehicle through Egypt than the carnet. Has anyone any experience of this method and in other African countries as well?

Unfortunately, because of our ripe old age - well mine anyway - a reasonably new vehicle is high on the list of requirements!

AntC

[Marc Lurie]

Remember that a Carnet doesn't ACTUALLY cost 800% of the value of the vehicle, and you don't have to have an amount of £80,000 for a £10,000 vehicle.

The Carnet is a document that promises that the full amount WILL be paid to the government only if the vehicle fails to leave the territory after a stipulated date.

I'm not entirely sure that a Carnet is a requirement in all countries, but it is a convenient way to get a vehicle accross a border with fewer hassles. Just make ABSOLUTELY sure that the Carnet and your vehicle registration papers, and your passport all have exactly the same information. eg. If the Carnet says Mark Lurie, and the passport says Marc Lurie, you WILL have hassles somewhere, and it'll cause delays and probably cost quite a lot too.

[leeds]

Hi AntC,
I think you are slightly confused about how the carnet system works. The carnet is required and is a gaureentee that a national motoring organisation (RAC in case of UK) will pay import duties etc to the relevant authoroties IF the vehicle is not removed from a country at the end of a visit.

Obviously the RAC will need to be sure that it can pay such a tax demand. To this end there are 3 ways that the RAC makes sure it is covered.

1) Cash deposited with RAC to cover its cost

2) Bank gaurantee from your bank

3) Insurance policy



The costs involved taken from the RAC site are

Carnet de Passages en Douane : £150.00
(5, 10 or 25 page)

Bank Guarantee Administration Fee £45.00
(Unlimited liability)


Bank Guarantee Administration Fee £55.50
(Limited liability)

R L Davison Insurance Premium - to be advised by RAC on receipt of completed Carnet application form
Premium of 10% - payable calculated on overall security/risk,
EXAMPLE : Africa tour including East Africa/Kenya (excluding Egypt), vehicle value - £5000.00
£5000 x 200% = £10,000. Premium of 10% payable, being £1000 with 50% refunded on return of carnet.
+ Insurance Premium Tax @ 5%

RAC Refundable Deposit £350.00
(Applicable to R L Davison Indemnity ONLY)

The method I used was bank gaurantee taking vehicle to Australia

Basic cost was £155.
Plus RAC bank gaurantee fee £45
Bank Cost was about £100

Total cost £300


To take a vehicle into Egypt costs would be

RAC cost £155
Insurance premium (base value) £1000 £800
5% Insurance Tax £40

Cost upfront £995

Less rebate on return -£400

Total cost £595



Yes you can claim a low base value of your vehicle but the RAC have a good idea of values of vehicles and how different countries custom s work.


If in doubt contact Paul Gowan(?) at the RAC as he is very helpful

Regards


Brendan

[sv130]

Just a thought guys, I,m pretty sure that I,ve read somewhere that sometimes Foleys the 4x4 prep guys need to deliver Land rovers down to "The Dark Continent" and they supply the truck and pay all carnet fees etc, leaving you to drive down at your own pace, drop the vehicle off, and fly back.

Seems like a win win system to me, may be worth a phone call to clarify.


Gaz

[AntC]

Hi Brendan

Thank you for a brilliant summary of how the carnet system works! Yes, I was a bit confused!

Kevin

Sorry if I have invaded your thread with my own query. You obviously have much more experience of long distance travel than I, but planning the trip is, for me, an exciting part of the whole process.

Am thinking of going the long way round the Eastern Mediterranean via Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Just a plan at the moment.

regards

AntC

[Marc Lurie]

Brendan, are you sure that the Egyptians accept a carnet? I know of three different South Africans who've been through Egypt, and in all three cases they had to actually register the vehicle as Egyptian, and then de-register it when they left. It was quite a rigmarole.

[leeds]

Hi Marc, I have never taken a vehicle into Egypt so can not comment upon it except from what I have found out from the RAC website.

Paul Govan/Gowen(???) at the RAC is very knowledgeable and helpful about carnets. His contact details are on the RAC link I posted above.

Normally you can only temporary import a car into another country for a maximum of 12 months Also as far as I am aware you can only register a vehicle in another country if you import it on a permanent basis and pay import duties. In many countries you have to be a permanent resident to do that as well.

The import duties in Eygpt are quite high hence the 800% instead of the more normal 150-200%

You said South African vehicles though, the situation for SA vehicles may well be very different to UK/EU vehicles. Also people mean different things by expressions such as registration etc.

The RAC are the national motoring organisation which deals with carnets etc in the UK. Therefore the BEST source of informationin my opinion is the RAC. Remember things like customs/visa etc can changed lierally overnight so the RAC will be the best and most up to date source of information.

A better source then me! :eek:


Regards


Brendan

[kevinrbeech]

This is taken from a blog of the guy that bought my RTT to use on his journey home, for both him and the tent (it was an Echo 4x4), he started from UK in Feb 2008.

Eventually we were called for inspection and a tall dude with glasses as me to open the back and he went through all the wolf boxes, look under my seat, looked through the cubby box, even got up onto the roof to inspect the amo boxes after I refuse to unbolt them and bring them done.
Next was the carnet man who checked our licence document and signed the bottom of the carnet and told s to drive to the traffic office about 20 meters away. This was where they check the engine and chassies numbers. We had no idea where ours were but eventually uncovered the engine fluid using a lot of brake fluid to clear away the grime and found the chassies number under the steering guard. They took a rubbing of these, stuck them to a piece of paper and sent us to the customs building. Here we had to copy all our documents, change money at the bank, and pay 502E£ for customs clearance. They gave us a piece of paper that we had to take back to the traffic office. The traffic office then sent us to the 3rd party insurance office who asked for 520E£ for insurance so it was back to the car for more $US, back to the bank to change it and then back to the insurance office. Once we got our insurance we were sent to get our Egyptian plates and licence document. Got the licence plate and were sent back to the customs office to get the carnet stamped. Go this and were sent back to the traffic office to get the Egyptian licence document, a small laminated car all in Arabic. We paid another 60E£ for this, fitted our number plates and were good to go! All this was done with genuine smiles and helpful assistance from all officials and was a really pleasant, if drawn out experience. All in all it took 4 hours.

I guess he'll be back in SA by now!
Kevin

[Marc Lurie]

4 hours??? Is that all?

I've been stuck at the Zim/SA border overnight and also at the Zambia/Tanzania border overnight.

Most border crossings take around 2 hours at least. Conkers and I must have spent at least three hours at the Zambia/Congo border last year.

OK, it didn't help that all SA citizen's ID number's changed in 1994 (no reference to race group in the new numbers), but all my vehicle paperwork continues to bear my old ID number. Easy enough to explain to a cop in SA, but a border official at the most corrupt border crossing in the world...:eek:

[leeds]

An interesting read Kevin.

Just had a quick search for offical information from the Eygptian Embassy for travel by car into Eygpt. Could not locate the offical website, only commercial sites.

Wish there was a good web address reference library somewhere!

Regards

Brendan

[kevinrbeech]

Further info from the guy that wrote the above.
Hi Kevin!
We made it home without a hitch! We had an absolutely awesome trip and are gutted that it is all over.

Egypt was one of the most incredible countries that we went through. Getting the vehicle in is absolutely no problem. It takes a while as the guys are very thorough (took us about 4 hours) but they aer very pleasant and as long as your ducks are in a row it is a piece of cake.

Make sure that you have your Carnet, licence docs, about $250US in cash to chage at the border as there is no bank.

Check out our blog. I thnik I gave a detailed write up of the process.

If you have the slightest inkling of doing the trip then do it. You wont regret it!! Why stop in Kenya?! If you aer stopping there consider leaving your vehicle there (at Jungle Junction) and flying out every year or so to do a 2 or 3 week trip around countries like Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya etc.

All the best,

Bruce

PS Your tent was great! Still using it, been away the last 2 weekends and going away this weekend again. After 250 nights on the road it still looks new.

[rich998]

As mentioned earlier (partly anyway), you'll find that most of Africa expects you to pay to get anywhere. I do mean cash in hand as well - off the radar. In East Africa it is accepted as Chai money, a little extra 'donation' towards the smooth running of your trip.

Problem is this culture is African, and not every European agrees with this type of activity.

You'll also find the borders have 'Fixers' who will do all the legwork for you, including the bribary bit. You'll have to find a local who you can vaguely trust, preferably someone who owns a bar/shop etc... so you can find them and they are less likely to take off with your cash and documents. If your first contact with the border officials looks like it could take longer than you want, just start asking around but be careful otherwise too much asking is going to get you in trouble. The fixers tend to be pretty obvious though.

I can't say this applies to the northern or southern extremes of Africa, but you'll get them inbetween. If you do decide to bribe, do it carefully. 'If I give you a bribe of 1000 shillings will you let me through?' is just going to get you arrested. 'I feel I should offer a small donation to help your son through school.' is much more likey to work.

What are you planning in Kenya? Give me a shout and I'll point you in the right direction for whatever you want to do or see.

Africa is an amazing place. I could spend a lifetime there.

[kevinrbeech]

Hi Rich,
I have noted your comments, thanks. I'll post on here again as the questions come up.
Kevin

[Marc Lurie]

you'll find that most of Africa expects you to pay to get anywhere.

I don't entirely agree with you Rich.

I have only ever needed a "fixer" at one border crossing, and this was between Zambia and the DR Congo. I'll list all other borders here here for interest's sake, as I completely understand that there are other borders I haven't crossed, and where a bribe or a fixer WOULD be necessary.

South Africa / Botswana
South Africa / Zimbabwe
South Africa / Lesotho
South Africa / Swaziland
South Africa / Mozambique
South Africa / Namibia
Namibia / Botswana
Botswana / Zambia
Botswana / Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe Zambia
Zimbabwe Mozambique
Zambia / Malawi
Malawi / Tanzania
Mozambique / Tanzania
Malawi / Mozambique
Tanzania / Uganda
Senegal / Gambia
Senegal / Guinea Bissau

In East Africa, I haven't been into Rwanda, Burundi, and Kenya but all of the people I've spoken who have been, have said that the border crossings were a doddle (well, a doddle by African standards, which means jostling, noise, organised (and disorganised) chaos etc.) :D I imagine that Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad might be a problem.

I've spoken with many people about West Africa. Nigeria is the common hassle country, but countries like Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Gabon etc. are relatively hassle-free.

Central Africa is a different story. Congo (both), Central African Republic, and northern Angola are a nightmare of bribery, harassment, bureaucratic nonsense etc.

I really can't comment on North Africa as I've done no driving there.