hho hydrogen vs petrol or both? [Archive]

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mosty3

22nd Feb 2009, 22:25

hho any one had a go yet, take a look on you tube have been watching the last year and they have come a long way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5GnSVOuMy4&NR=1

Marc Lurie

22nd Feb 2009, 22:42

Come on!!! Give it a rest already! It's SNAKE OIL.

If it made commercial sense AND works, why isn't everyone doing it? it desrves the bin, just like magnetic shoe pads, quick weight-loss tablets, homeopathic remedies, copper bracelets for arthritis, ginger for sea-sickness etc!

mosty3

24th Feb 2009, 19:40

how come bmw has developed hydrogen powered car ?

wytco0

24th Feb 2009, 21:27

HHO and a hydrogen powered car are very different things.

And I very much doubt ig BMW will sell many hydrogen powered cars, they are going for using hydrogen as a power source to an internal combustion engine as opposed to using hydrogen witha fuel cell. My expectation is that that idea won't take off.

And I agree with Marc thins HHO stuff is snake oil although I would just call it garbage.

Marc Lurie

25th Feb 2009, 09:03

how come bmw has developed hydrogen powered car ?

That's a no-brainer. BMW's car runs on hydrogen that is stored (under pressure) in a 30 gallon tank. It doesn't have a small glass bottle with a few bubbles coming out of it.

The consumption of the BMW car is around 5mpg, far more than a few bubbles can ever produce.

Their hydrogen is produced in industrial quantities, using enormous amounts of input energy... far larger amounts than the petrol that it replaces.

discofever13

24th Mar 2009, 13:13

I run one on our 3.9 disco, and it makes a difference we do in excess of 350 miles per week and saves us its not a huge but very notisable and the truck runs very notisabley better smooth, so if you havent tryed it dont nock it didnt we all say the same of lpg in the early daysit costs £15. per year to run distilled water and pertassium sulfide

wytco0

24th Mar 2009, 13:20

discofever13, please could you post some detailed figure to support the savings you are seeing. How much does it save you? how does it drive? What sort of installation do you have?

Its not a matter of knocking something I dont know about, I understand the science pretty well and I can see no way that it can work at all. However I am interested in what you have installed and what difference it makes.

Marc Lurie

24th Mar 2009, 13:54

However I am interested in what you have installed and what difference it makes.

And how you measure the difference...

wytco0

1st Apr 2009, 19:08

Anyone who believes the HHO nonsense might like to have a look at this:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html

wytco0

1st Apr 2009, 19:17

and another link

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4310717.html

MickyG1982

8th Nov 2009, 00:30

Here's the thing, HHO power is never going to work ever. The simple reason being that it takes exactly the same energy to break up (during electrolysis) water into it's component parts as is produced by combustion of Hydrogen & Oxygen. Even assuming 100% efficiency there would be no energy left to power the car, in real terms efficiency would be closer to 20% bue to limitations within the second law of thermodynamics. 80% of the energy created combusting the hydrogen would be lost as heat, the remaining 20% would be used convert hydrogen to oxygen so there is actually a net loss of energy before you even get to move the vehicle!

In short you will be going nowhere using water alone as a power source.

I guess you could use Solar power to generate electricity to generate hydrogen from water using electrolysis. The hydrogen could then be used to power the car. ultimately however it would not be a true water powered car, it would be solar powered. You would also be screwed at night unless you could store some of the electrical energy produced during the day (i.e. batteries). This is assuming that you can produce enough electricity using todays inefficient solar panels to both generate hydrogen & charge up batteries, especially during the winter! The chances are that unless you completely cover your car in solar panels this is not going to be possible.

Using both a petrol engine & 'hydrogen generator' is also pointless as you are still producing pollution & using up fossil fuels. You would be as well just using a normal engine.

Sources: A little knowledge (High school chemistry & physics!):idea:

MickyG1982

8th Nov 2009, 00:35

Hydrogen fuel cells are probably the future however, well once someone figures out how to generate hydrogen on a massive scale without using fossil fuels...

SimonHobson

12th Nov 2009, 09:25

Hydrogen fuel cells are probably the future however, well once someone figures out how to generate hydrogen on a massive scale without using fossil fuels...
You forgot ...

and figure out how to store it*, and how to transport it*, and how to get the investment needed to make it practical to use**, and one or two other issues.

* To store and transport it you need to either compress it to very high pressures (very energy consuming), or compress it to high pressures and cool it so it liquifies (even more energy inefficient). Once compressed (and possibly liquified) it then leaks out - even steel is porous to hydrogen. You can't park your car up for a week and then expect it to have any fuel left. If the fuel is liquified, then it's going to absorb heat no matter how well insulated, and it will have to be allowed to boil off through a relief valve or the tank will burst under pressure.
To handle the high pressure, the tanks are massively strong and make LPG tanks look positively flimsy. I can't recall the details, but from a talk a while ago I think the figures quoted were something like 30kg of tank to hold just 5l of hydrogen - not quite sure what the last measurement was, but it was a small fraction (in equivalent terms) of the fuel capacity of a standard petrol tank.
And just think of the weight of a tanker with that sort of pressure rating - lots of weight for very little fuel.

** Classic chicken and egg situation - who's going to invest in hydrogen dispensers when there's no cars to run on it, and who's going to buy a car that you can't fuel. At least BMW had the sense to realise that dual-fuel was essential so their cars could (I believe) still run on petrol. It's not teh same as LPG since with almost all LPG powered vehicles, you can still use petrol if needed.

Once you've got your hydrogen (by whatever means - some of them aren't exactly 'carbon neutral'), there is a relatively cheap and simple process that will let you collect atmospheric CO2 and combine them to make Methanol. Methanol is liquid at atmospheric temperature and pressure - it can quite simply be transported using the same liquid handling equipment and processes currently used for petrol. It'll burn in most modern engines with minor adjustments, and manufacturers could make cars 'flex fuel' for very little investment (ie new cars could be made flex fuel for (according to the figures I've been told) about £100 on the forecourt price !) And because Methanol, Ethanol, and Petrol are miscible in any proportion, you could use whatever fuel was available.

zoltan

13th Nov 2009, 21:06

This looks like a fresh break provided you want to travel the same bit of road

http://www.hynor.no/hynor-1/view?set_language=en

The Hydrogen Project HyNor are building a hydrogen road between Stavanger and Oslo. HyNor was established in spring 2003. Total 50 players in the industry, transport, regional governments and organizations are included in HyNor. The purpose of the project is to lay the foundation for a broad testing of hydrogen in the transport sector in Norway. The idea is to build an initial hydrogen infrastructure, as part of a future permanent infrastructure. In the course of 2009 it will be possible to drive hydrogen-fueled vehicles between Oslo and Stavanger.

MickyG1982

13th Nov 2009, 21:30