Clutch Problems

[Justin_Sherfy]

Recently, two weeks ago, my clutch stopped working. I have a ’95 Discovery with a 200tdi engine. I pulled the engine out to get to the adapter between the transmission and the engine. The release bearing appears fine. The slave cylinder and master cylinder seem to be working fine. I’ll bleed the system and check the air vent in the reservoir cap to make sure. I noticed some oil pooled up at the bottom of the adapter between the transmission and the engine. I’m pretty sure there shouldn’t be any oil in the adapter. So, I’m thinking my rear main seal may be going? I read in the rave manual that oil can cause the clutch friction plate to stick, which might explain some of the problem. However, my clutch stays at the floor when I push it, which wouldn’t happen if just the friction plate was sticking, right?
Any suggestions are appreciated.

[listerdiesel]

Did you check the clutch release fork pivot bearing area?

Known problem on the 200/300tdi, reinforced forks available. The pivot wears or splits through.

Peter

[kevinrbeech]

"My clutch stopped working" is rather ambiguous.

As is pedal stats on the floor.

I assume that when you press the clutch it goes to the floor without dis-engaging?
How do you know that the master and slave appear to be working, you can't tell that just by looking at them?
The spring is on the pressure plate, if the friction plate was sticking the clutch would be engaged.
It could be either cylinder, the fork or a collapsed bearing, or, unless you've already check, has the bearing just pushed through the fingers.
Try to give a little more info.
Kevin

[Justin_Sherfy]

Thanks for the feed back.

The clutch will not disengage. If I push the clutch pedal it stays on the floor. The only way to shift is to speed shift.

I said the master cylinder and slave cylinder appear to be fine because when I depress the clutch pedal the slave cylinder actuates the rod and pushes the clutch fork. However, I agree that this does not necessarily mean they're working correctly.

I have a reinforced clutch fork. When I did the conversion to 200tdi I got the reinforced version.

[Justin_Sherfy]

I'll try to post some pictures.

[Justin_Sherfy]

What about the oil in the adapter housing? It shouldn't be there, right?

[listerdiesel]

You'll always get a bit in there, but usually gets mixed with clutch dust and forms a black layer inside the bell housing.

Excess amounts would be a cupful a week or something like that.

Peter

[Justin_Sherfy]

A little background.

I haven't had any clutch problems, until now, since completing the conversion in January 2009. About a month ago I made a four hour drive to Port Arthor, TX with no problems. On the way back to my home from Port Arthor I noticed the clutch pedal wouldn't aways pop back up after I pushed it to disengage the clutch. I wasn't having any trouble shifting into different gears. I noticed that the clutch pedal would only return halfway, and that I had to pull it back all the way with my foot. It wasn't until the end of my journey that I noticed the clutch pedal would only return to the halfway point. I parked the truck that night and didn't think much of the issue because it was late. The next morning the clutch didn't seem to be having an issue. It wasn't sticking. I drove it around town for the next two weeks with no problems. However, there were no long trips, only my commute to work and back home.

Flash forward two weeks. I had to drive to Indiana from Texas and then back to Texas in one weekend. About 800 miles into the journey I notice that to disengage the clutch the pedal seemed to have to be closer to the floor. And, it would only return to the halfway point, not all the way, upon reengagement of the clutch. By the time I made it to Indiana I couldn't disengage the clutch at all. I drove it back to Texas speed shifting and it hasn't been working since.

That's the story.

[kevinrbeech]

Some pics of mine when I removed it, similar story to yours but just got progressively worse until it wouldn't dis-engage.

Note the missing fingers on the pressure plate, I didn't notice this until I was about to reassemble.

Regards,
Kevin

[Justin_Sherfy]

This afternoon I had someone push the clutch pedal while I held the the clutch release bearing in the engaged position (pedal out). They pushed the pedal and I was able to hold the bearing in the disengaged position without a lot of force. When I let go it slid forward. This would indicate a bad slave and/or master cylinder. Or, that there is air in the system, correct? Thoughts?

Also, there's some oil (I think it's oil) in the clutch housing (adapter between the gear box and the engine). I'm thinking I need to replace the rear main seal too. So, removing the engine wasn't a complete waste, I hope.

Here are some pics of my friction plate, friction plate cover, clutch housing, release bearing and clutch fork. One small finger on the clutch plate is bent out a little toward the gear box. Would this cause a problem?

[kevinrbeech]

This afternoon I had someone push the clutch pedal while I held the the clutch release bearing in the engaged position (pedal out). They pushed the pedal and I was able to hold the bearing in the disengaged position without a lot of force. When I let go it slid forward. This would indicate a bad slave and/or master cylinder. Or, that there is air in the system, correct? Thoughts?


I would think this is where the problem lies.

Replace the necessary while engine is out and try again, if it then all works you know the engine can go back.

I think though that you have now answered you own question.
Kevin

[Carl]

Justin,

To test my clutch hydraulics I pulled the slave cylinder and used a clamp to stop the piston coming out (socket over the bleed nipple then clamped over the socket and piston face). Push on the pedal. If after the first press the pedal doesn't go rock hard then you have a problem somewhere on the system.

At the stage you are at now why not just put a new master and slave in and a new clutch while it is all apart?

[Justin_Sherfy]

Update:

I replaced the rear main seal since the engine was out. I reinstalled the engine, replaced the slave cylinder, replaced the master cylinder and bled the clutch system. When I'd depress the clutch the truck would go into gear so the system seemed to be working. I reconnected all the engine components. When I drove the truck for the first time last night the clutch didn't seem as responsive. I had to depress the clutch pedal all the way to the floor and my truck had to be within 10 mph (this is a guess) of the required speed to shift into the appropriate gear. If I wasn't within 10mph the gears would grind. I remember that before the clutch broke I could shift into any gear I wanted no matter what the speed was as long as the clutch was disengaged. I called a friend of mine and went through my ordeal. He said that I was bleeding the clutch wrong. I would open the nipple on the slave cylinder and depress the clutch pedal. I didn't have the other end of the bleed hose submersed in clutch fluid or plugged up when I'd pull the clutch pedal out (reengage the clutch). So, hopefully, this is my problem. I'm going to try to bleed the system tonight, and I'll give another update.

Incidentally, I'm not really sure what my originaly problem was. If I had to guess I'd say that the slave cylinder leaked past the plunger and got into the flywheel housing. And, air was also drawn into the system through the plunger. I'm not sure, but that would be my guess.

[Justin_Sherfy]

Update:

I bled the system and the clutch responsivness improved. But, it still doesn't like to go into second gear unless it's right around the correct speed.

How do I tell if my transmission is dieing or if I still have a clutch problem?

[bananahead]

Ok, i assume this car used to be a 300 and it has the original gearbox?
If so then 2nd gear crunchiness is pretty common... i have had two of these cars and had two gearbox's in one of them and 2nd has not been perfect in any of the box's. Try changing from 1st to 2nd a bit slower and see if it helps... Also if you dont push the gear lever exactly the right way it crunches... I hope your problem now is just this.

[Justin_Sherfy]

Thanks, Banana.

I think it is a gearbox issue now. I ordered some Redline manual transmission fluid, which, according to another LR forum, is suppose to be really good stuff. I hopeful it will reduce the rubbing when I shift to second or third.

My truck was originally a 3.9 V8. Much to my disappointment they don't sell diesel LRs in the US. A friend of mine in the UK sourced the 200tdi I currently have.

[bananahead]

I take it you are using the original gearbox. Is this the same gearbox as a 300 or a 200 or neither? I cant help but think this might be part of the problem... When you bought a slave cylinder did you get one for a v8 or 200? How different are they? Do they travel different distances? Or doesnt it matter? I am just thinking aloud....

Having said that you had no problems for a long time so it is probably the infamous crunchiness of land rover gearbox's that many of us just get used to!

[Justin_Sherfy]

Banana,

I'm using the right slave cylinder. It was sent to me with the engine. It's on a bracket next to the damper the diesels require. Good thought, though.

I took my truck to a local guy and he was able to diagnose that my blockout rings are bad on 2nd and 3rd gear. So, the transmission is getting old. I talked to another friend in the UK and he said don't worry about rebuilding it if I could put up with the transmission. It's not that bad.

I'm going to change the fluid and live with it. I don't want to spend the money. When it dies I'll get a new one or a rebuilt one.

[bananahead]

Ok thats what i meant when i said we get used to it. The gearbox's are notorious for it and they will go on and on forever with the crunchiness.. Just try and learn to change without it crunching. The gearbox will probably outlive the rest of the car as it rots around it!