Africa overland 300Tdi or Td5

[askeni]

Hi everyone,

I am planning an expedition from London to Capetown, and taking a D110 is a given.

I am also nearly sure I am going to have to take a 300Tdi - simply because the 300 Tdi doesnt have an ECU etc, and is more easily fixable on the road.

Do you agree?

I know that Land Rover still fit 300Tdi's for non-european markets, but does anyone recon it would be possible to buy a new D110 with a 300Tdi in the UK.

Many thanks indeed

Nico

[AJC]

Hi everyone,

I am planning an expedition from London to Capetown, and taking a D110 is a given.

I am also nearly sure I am going to have to take a 300Tdi - simply because the 300 Tdi doesnt have an ECU etc, and is more easily fixable on the road.

Do you agree?

I know that Land Rover still fit 300Tdi's for non-european markets, but does anyone recon it would be possible to buy a new D110 with a 300Tdi in the UK.

Many thanks indeed

Nico

Keith GOTT is selling them.

He doesn't have any right now though. My friend has one on order.

AJ

[AJC]

Sorry. This is the link http://www.keithgott.co.uk/I have one but it was obtained from COPS http://www.cops.gi


AJ

[Marc Lurie]

I would definitely recommend the 200Tdi over the TD5. There are threads about this matter elsewhere on the forum.

Interestingly enough, all of the African (or ex-African in the case of Spysmys and Eben) forum members favour the 200Tdi or 300Tdi, while the proponents of the TD5 are European or American.

I would suggest that the African members possibly know more about African conditions, and that their recommendations come from genuine experiences in Africa. ;)

A trip through Africa is VERY VERY different from a trip through Europe, and you must plan everything very carefully.

BTW, what is your intended route through Africa? At the moment, there are real problems in Sudan, Somalia, Central African Republic and northern DRC. How do you plan to get through this "band" of extremely dangerous countries?

One way is to go through Libya, Niger, then West Africa, down the coast through Angola. The difficult parts are likely to be Angola, Gabon, and Congo (Brazzaville), with Congo being the most difficult.

Regards,
Marc

[JamesF]

Nico,

When are you looking at going?
I am currently preparing my 1983 110 with 300TDI to leave in July/august this year.

Marc,
If you don't mind I might run my route past you once I've sorted it out. I'm currently following a few trips on the Africa Overland site
www.africa-overland.net
I'm hoping to go West through Morocco, Mauritania, Senegal, Mali then I'm not sure but want to work across (probably have to South then East then North) to visit my Cousin working for Oxfam in Kenya. Time isn't a problem. Any thoughts????

Regards,

James

[Peter R.]

What about a nice 2.5NA diesel, with a good overhaul. You can fix it with a coathanger, a pair of pliers and a screwdriver (NOT the drink, smartbottom).

Peter R.

[Storm]

[QUOTE=Peter R.]You can fix it with a coathanger, a pair of pliers and a screwdriver (NOT the drink, smartbottom).
QUOTE]

You got me all excited,.... D*MN!!

[swisspace]

I went throught the same decision process recently. I opted for a TD5 for the following reasons.

It will be a few years before we leave on the africa trip and before then we will be making trips mostly in europe. By the time we do such a trip I will have accumulated a spare ECU and also the software and laptop(s) to diagnose any problems, should they occur.

Should I need any parts they can be posted. but I have plenty of time to make sure it's well prepared, and in my opinion I think the TD5 is less likely to break in the first place (please don't take offence TDi owners as none is intended)

If I was leaving soon and didn't have as much time to get to know the vehicle I would have probably opted for a 300Tdi.

I think it all depends how happy or confident you feel around electronics.

[Peter R.]

I think now is about the time Eben should jump in here.

Peter R, sits back and watches the fireworks...

[swisspace]

I dont mean to start any fireworks ;) I was just explaining my decision after input from various sources including this site and I read Eben's posts before making my decision. For me personally electronics hold no fear - I would be more worried about being involved in a crash. However if you do not feel comfortable with electronics then its gotta be a 300Tdi that the bush mechanics can fix.

[askeni]

Thanks for your replies - all very interesting. I called a couple of companies who can supply 300Tdi's but they wont supply to the UK.

I guess I am going to have to get a late 300Tdi with low milage and go from there!

Cheers

Nico

[AJC]

Thanks for your replies - all very interesting. I called a couple of companies who can supply 300Tdi's but they wont supply to the UK.

I guess I am going to have to get a late 300Tdi with low milage and go from there!

Cheers

Nico

Nico,

Out of interest, which companies did you contact?

Another thing to take into account when travelling through many countries is the Carne de Passage and the cost of it. Some African countries can demand up to 400% x the value of the vehicle if you were to leave without it (crashed/stolen/sold). Hence why you see a lot of overland travellers in older vehicles.

AJ

[JamesF]

AJ,
Doesn't Egypt want 500%?
James

[askeni]

Conrico and another one (sorry forgotten the name).

Not too worried about the Carnet cost - fully insurable in the worst case.

Cheers

Nico

[AJC]

AJ,
Doesn't Egypt want 500%?
James

Wouldn't surprise me.

May be some info in this exped as they went through Egypt.

http://www.a2b.uk.net/index.php

AJ

[AJC]

Conrico and another one (sorry forgotten the name).

Not too worried about the Carnet cost - fully insurable in the worst case.

Cheers

Nico

Nico,

It's not just insurance it's duty that the local customs require. Are you fully spammed up on the Carnet, indemnities and double indemnities? I'm not fully up to date but I can point you in the right direction if required.

AJ

[JamesF]

AJ,
You might be right, I've decided to avoid Egypt nonetheless due to the Carnet cost.

Nico,
When are you planning to go??

James

[JamesF]

AJ,
You might be right 400-500% either sounds like a lot to me!!

Nico,
When are you planning to travel?

James

Oops posted twice... Damn you computer!

[maxtd5def]

I'll put in a vote the other way: Go TD5.

The TD5 has more power & torque, its much better to drive than any tdi. Fuel consumption is a tad more though.

The TD5 is a good engine. It just doesn't give trouble. There were some early issues with oil in the injector harness, but that was fixed at the factory long ago.

The Tdi does have issues. Apart from ther belt, you'll have head gasket issues about 160,000 kms. And spare 200 heads are getting hard to find. Overhauling the pump & injectors is expensive.

Having had both 200tdi & TD5, theres no way I'd go back to tdi. Unless you're planning to drown the car, you'll be unlucky to have any electrics issues with a TD5.

Regards
Max P

p.s. I know of one TD5 90 that was drowned in Cape York, and later written off. No grip & abandoned mid stream, water above bonnet height.

A week later, whern it had dried out fully - it started!

[Murphree]

I dont mean to start any fireworks ;) I was just explaining my decision after input from various sources including this site and I read Eben's posts before making my decision. For me personally electronics hold no fear - I would be more worried about being involved in a crash. However if you do not feel comfortable with electronics then its gotta be a 300Tdi that the bush mechanics can fix. The real problem is where there are not even any bush mechanics - you need to be reasonably conversant with fixing your own vehicle TD5 or 300Tdi. The point is that all of the configurations will have their strengths and weaknesses. One heads up for TD5 overlanders is the variable quality of diesel available in much of Africa. Fuel here is often contaminated with sediments etc - this can seriously affect the tank fitted lift pump on the TD5 (you might want to pack a spare).

[Marc Lurie]

Should I need any parts they can be posted.

OK, let the fireworks begin... :D I know this is going to be a long posting... :p

The above quote by swisspace is typical of some of the misunderstandings about African travel. You CANNOT simply post spares to many African destinations.

The place to which you can post spares will be the places where the spares are available anyway. You CAN post spares to Johannesburg, or Dar es Salaam, or Gaborone, or Accra, or Lagos, or Nouackchot, or Libreville etc. but these places have LR agencies who will get you the parts in any case.

What you CAN'T do is simply post spares to many a destination outside the main centres. Firstly, it is highly unlikely that the parts will get to you. Secondly, if by some miracle they do get to you, you will have to wait weeks for them, and thrirdly, when they arrive they WILL be damaged. People with no experience of Africa simply don't understand that there is no culture of reliable mail systems in most parts of Africa. With literacy rates sometimes in single figures in rural areas, there is virtually no correspondence by mail between people. No-one in a rural village will receive letters from their relatives, bills from clothing stores, junk mail from Readers Digest etc. There is no accountability for the safe delivery of parcels. Packages are routinely opened and rifled, or they're simply stolen. It is not uncommon for a "mailman" to find a relatively expensive item (such as a $800 Landrover spare part) in a parcel, and then abscond from his job with that parcel because he knows that the contents are worth almost twice his annual salary.

Now, what do you do WHEN (not IF) you break down in the bush in say, rural Mozambique? You either fix the problem there and then, or you have three options:
a) leave your buddy with the vehicle while you go and find someone who can help. This option might turn out OK eventually. :p
b) You both leave the vehicle to find someone to help. This option WILL NOT turn out OK, and you will return to a burgled, vandalised vehicle. :eek:
c) You both wait there until someone arrives to help you. This may, or may not, turn out OK :(

I don't know how to impress on people that, in Africa, there are many more ways of being dead than there are of being alive. :rolleyes: Rural Africa has no time for the negligent, the ignorant, or the unprepared. It WILL find your weaknesses, it WILL exploit them, and it WILL test you to the limit. I know this sounds melodramatic, but I'm not talking about a safari trip in Kenya or a visit to Cape Town, I'm talking about rural, undeveloped Africa, the parts you have to drive through if you're planning a trip across Africa.

Max, as for the TD5 having more power and torque, you don't absolutely need this in most parts of Africa. The increased speed is nice in Southern Africa (Namibia, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Botswana) where the roads are in good condition, and there are long distances between police roadblocks. Outside of Southern Africa you will have little opportunity to use the available speed because of poor road conditions and ever present cops looking for speeders. (for example, average speed on "highways" in Mozambique is around 70km/h, dropping to 40km/h in villages and towns). Also, you must expect to "drown" your vehicle. Even if you're extremely lucky and don't ever have to cross more than a puddle, you MUST be prepared for anything. Your vehicle could be tipped overboard a ferry crossing a river for example. I had an issue with a ferry across the Zambezi in Mozambique. I was halfway on the ferry when he ran out of diesel, the motor stopped, and he drifted into the river. I suddenly found myself up to the windscreen in water. I didn't PLAN that. :rolleyes: To misquote Robbie Burns: "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry" Nowhere in the world is this more apt than in Africa. :confused:

James, please feel free to ask me about anything. I'm not au-fait at all with the Sahel region of NW Africa, so all I can give is my impressions and 2nd hand info. I know Southern Africa very well. and East Africa pretty well up to Kenya, and have a fair idea about parts of Central and West Africa.

Regards,
Marc

[swisspace]

Hmmm, perhaps I made it sound too simple when I said I would get it posted. I am not totally ignorant of Africa and its customs though definately not an expert either ;) . And meant in an extreme emergency I could get a part to me via other overlanders or even someone bringing it. OR worst case scenario if we have to abandon the vehicle, then thats the end of the trip. I know I have made this sound easier than it will be, but I plan to have a backup plan for each stage.

As far as I can tell (but willing to be corrected) the main differences between the TDi and the TD5 is the electronics. I would guess most of the running gear which is most likely to get broken could be fixed by a bush mechanic. Electronic spares are small light and easy to carry. For me I have plenty of time to get to know the vehicle and its weaknesses. Also after talking to some of the offroaders here I have every confidence the TD5 can be waterproofed sufficiently.

Now my question is what about the Engine, (which should be less likely to break ) thats a bit more difficult, what if the crank goes or a piston is holed or anything else like that are the parts different from a Tdi etc. can the TDi parts be mdified to fit etc. How good is liquid metal ;)

In conclusion I still stand by my decision that for me a TD5 is the better choice but If I was going tomorrow OR I wasn't comfortable with electronics then I would choose a TDi.

But then again by the time I get to go Africa will be full of TD5's and every Bush mecahnic will be an expert :D

[Marc Lurie]

At the moment, spares availability is definitely an issue for the TD5. There are usually plenty spares for Tdi's and 19J's etc. even in pretty remote areas.

Marc

[Murphree]

I will probably get myself thrown in the sin bin for saying this BUT if I were going to do a trans - Africa what I would really like is a Land Rover 110 CSW fitted with a Toyota Land Cruiser 4.2 NA diesel and drive train. I have no idea if it can be done - but that is what I would want.

Why not just get a Land Cruiser? They get stolen...sometimes with you in them! Land Rover .....very rarely. Mrs M recently attended an anti - car jacking lecture and the instructor said the least likely vehicle to be car-jacked is a Series or Defender Land Rover.

[billh]

Nico,

It's not just insurance it's duty that the local customs require. Are you fully spammed up on the Carnet, indemnities and double indemnities? I'm not fully up to date but I can point you in the right direction if required.

AJ

Likewise, it's a few years since I got a Carnet, but there were 3 ways to cover the expense. And the bond is a percentage of the new value!

In a bonded account with the AA/RAC, released when the carnet is returned complete.

Underwritten at 5% of the bond, just to cover the bond. They will chase you for the money if they have to pay out.

Underwritten at 10% of the bond, covered in the case of theft/loss.

So (if the 500% Egypt figure is correct) a £20k landy needs a bond of £100k, which will cost £10k to fully cover:eek:

[Eben]

I will probably get myself thrown in the sin bin for saying this BUT if I were going to do a trans - Africa what I would really like is a Land Rover 110 CSW fitted with a Toyota Land Cruiser 4.2 NA diesel and drive train. I have no idea if it can be done - but that is what I would want.



I think I'll join you in the sin bin.

Apart from the Defender anti hihack safety aspect, that Toyota engine has T O R Q U E like you wouldn't believe. I know. I used to own a Land Cruiser. Then there's the fact that the parts can be purchased throughout West Africa - where Land Rover spares aren't that easily obtainable.

But, until I find a conversion plate, I'll keep myself entertained rebuilding 2.5D NA engines for our expedition. Truck 1 is about as sorted as it's going to get so truck 2 went into the workshop yesterday.

When you are on an overland trip, you are on holiday. The idea isn't to spend hours racing down motorways from one point to another. The idea is to take your time, take in the scenary and relax.

[Marc Lurie]

I would also agree with the idea of Defender with a Landcruiser engine, but I doubt if there's enough space to fit the straight 6, 4.2l into a Defender :rolleyes: , so I'll stick with the Tdi.

Marc

[Spysmys]

Marc,

Imagine how your blood would boil when you try to explain why you're looking for toyota parts and you drive a Landy.

iesh,....deeze partz won'd feet that truck !, try usingg deeze cot-hanger !

[Peter R.]

I made the same mistake a while back too. Hakuna and Eben sorted me out.

I am still conviced that a Td5 could make a trans africa with no problems. However, after a bit of to-and fro bantering it dawned on me that that is not the isuue. The issue is what happens if you DO break down halfway between Congo and Burundi. And that's when the fat lady sings. You're dead in the water. Game over. Please insert a coin...

Thing is, you can never take everything in spares. Even if you did, murphy would make you break the same part twice. End.

You need something you can fixx with a hammer and a chisel. Or weld a bit on. Or replace a piston by a wooden one. Whatever gets you going agiain. You can't even take the head of a td5 without being able to get it back on without leaks. If someone puts a welder to it without disconnecting the battery you'll fry the ECU.

Even the 300tdi I'd consider too troublesome. I was serious when I suggested a 2.5NA. I'd even consider a 2.25.

A Toy engine would eat the drivetrain.

Peter R., who DOES learn, even if it sometimes takes a while.

[Marc Lurie]

Marc,

Imagine how your blood would boil when you try to explain why you're looking for toyota parts and you drive a Landy.

"Eiish, hauw wêna! Ungu jikile! UyiNgisi na?" (my apologies for VERY rusty Zulu)

Rough translation:

"Goodness gracious! You're mad! Are you English?" :D

[Marc Lurie]

The issue is what happens if you DO break down halfway between Congo and Burundi. And that's when the fat lady sings. You're dead in the water. Game over. Please insert a coin...


PETER, YOU'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!! WE HAVE A CONVERT!!! :Mexicanwa

However, I'd like to change your wording from "if you do break down" to "when you do break down".

I'm going to my mate's pub in an hour's time, and I'll have one for you, in celebration of your new-found enlightenment. ;)

Marc

[Murphree]

I would also agree with the idea of Defender with a Landcruiser engine, but I doubt if there's enough space to fit the straight 6, 4.2l into a Defender :rolleyes: , so I'll stick with the Tdi.

Marc Great thing about the Landy is that where there is a will there is a way! Oh and BTW thanks for the user title:D :D

[Murphree]

However, I'd like to change your wording from "if you do break down" to "when you do break down".

..... and that sports fans is why you want a Land Cruiser engine:p

[Marc Lurie]

Oh and BTW thanks for the user title:D :D

My pleasure :D Hope you like it...

[swisspace]

its funny, I have been moaning to myself for a while about how technology has made touring on motorbikes so reliable its almost boring, twenty years ago a two week trip to the south of france was quite an adventure, taking planning and packing whatever spares you thought necessary. now I ride back to the UK without even a second thought for the bike, check fluid levels perhaps but its certainly no adventure. Okay I admit its not Africa with its associated risks, and after a recent trip to the dunes in morocco it only required the mirror retightening. Admittedly things could go wrong and spares and tools were carried just in case.

Now though you have all given me hope, there is more adventure and challenge to be found in driving a TD5 across africa rather than a TDi, which everyone does. ;)

On a serious note and to show I am not totally reckless I would like to get everyone thinking about what life threatening and or vehicle stopping scenarios could be possible and also repairs.

I know it won't be possible to list all scenarios but it would help if you listed problems you have had and how they were fixed in the wild and then I could reaccess the risk and decide it would be just to much of an adventure with a TD5

are these assumptions false or totally impractical.

drivetrain - similar to TDi models so should be bush fixable
Engine/Gearbox - not bushfixable but possible to transplant an older engine
Bodywork and accessories - bush fixable
ECU etc - carry spares and suitable software to program.

[Marc Lurie]

..... and that sports fans is why you want a Land Cruiser engine:p

I can't fault your logic :D and happen to agree with you.

However, wouldn't the PERFECT engine be a MB truck engine. Just about every second vehicle in Africa is one of those smoke-belching, 50km/h Merc trucks. I'm sure you'll get spares ANYWHERE for those, and for the price of a few mangoes :D :D :D

BTW, I get down to friends in Howick every now and then. We should meet for a frosty when I'm down there.

Marc

[Murphree]

I can't fault your logic :D and happen to agree with you.

However, wouldn't the PERFECT engine be a MB truck engine. Just about every second vehicle in Africa is one of those smoke-belching, 50km/h Merc trucks. I'm sure you'll get spares ANYWHERE for those, and for the price of a few mangoes :D :D :D

BTW, I get down to friends in Howick every now and then. We should meet for a frosty when I'm down there.

Marc Excellent:) Best idea I've heard all day just send me a PM:beers:

[Marc Lurie]

On a serious note and to show I am not totally reckless I would like to get everyone thinking about what life threatening and or vehicle stopping scenarios could be possible and also repairs.


I always carry a complete axle set of wheel bearings. (ie 4 bearings with cups and rollers). If you sieze a wheel bearing in the bush then there is NOTHING you can do until it's fixed. You can't even tow the vehicle. Wheel bearings can sieze at any time, particularly in mud, sand and water. It's the only breakdown that I can think of that TOTALLY incapacitates your vehicle. With that you'll need a hub-nut spanner, gear puller, and replacement hub seals.

I also carry bits of wire, cable ties (very useful), rope, string, jubilee clamps, epoxy putty and glue, silicone sealant, and anything else that looks useful. :D

Fire is always a risk, either from mistakes around the campfire, electrical problems, or grass collecting between engine and exhaust pipe. Carry a decent sized fire extinguisher, and a decent first-aid kit, and learn how to use both of them.

For me though, holidays always carry the imminent threat of alcohol poisoning. :D

Marc

[Murphree]

I know it won't be possible to list all scenarios but it would help if you listed problems you have had and how they were fixed in the wild and then I could reaccess the risk and decide it would be just to much of an adventure with a TD5

are these assumptions false or totally impractical.

drivetrain - similar to TDi models so should be bush fixable
Engine/Gearbox - not bushfixable but possible to transplant an older engine
Bodywork and accessories - bush fixable
ECU etc - carry spares and suitable software to program. You make some valid points -.....I said it before...that in my opinion your achillies heel will be the moderate to poor quality of diesel fuel found in Africa (S Africa excluded) its not just the contaminants but the grade of diesel that is used in many countries that for economic/corrupt reasons buy cheap diesel on the international market. I know that in Zimbabwe the TD5 stage one fuel pump was regularly affected by this and its "apparently" not that fixable. Associated with this are all the anti polution gubbins and the precise injection systems etc...they take serious flak with the junk that they get fed on out here:eek: Just some thoughts for now:D

[Peter R.]

Carry every part that's connected in one way or another to the ECU, prefreably multiple items, an ECU, and a laptop (with a charged battery), spare battery, charger, spare charger, USB to serial interface and spare, rovacom and spare, assorted spares and backups for the computer including a screen. You need the laptop to identify the part you just put in to the ECU.

The thing that will break most likely is whatever you didn't bring a spare for.

If the injection pump dies you're on foot. It's unfixable without specialist gear.

Peter R., who still doesn't like the 300tdi.

[Peter R.]

PETER, YOU'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!! WE HAVE A CONVERT!!! :Mexicanwa

However, I'd like to change your wording from "if you do break down" to "when you do break down".

I'm going to my mate's pub in an hour's time, and I'll have one for you, in celebration of your new-found enlightenment. ;)

Marc

Cheers :beers:

[swisspace]

Re Fuel, I was going to fit an extra fuel filter but is it possible to remap the ECU, on my bike I bought a special plug which you put in when you want to run on african petrol, nice of BMW to thing of that. But I wonder is it possible to get a remapped ECU to cope with that.

Wheel bearings injection pump and associated tools noted down for inclusion.

I am not against the TDi's at all, its just that for the next couple of years we will be adventuring in Europe with the possiblity of trips only to north africa. good TD5' s are much easier to find here than TDi's. So it will be a while before we overland to South Africa.

[AJC]

Re Fuel, I was going to fit an extra fuel filter but is it possible to remap the ECU, on my bike I bought a special plug which you put in when you want to run on african petrol, nice of BMW to thing of that. But I wonder is it possible to get a remapped ECU to cope with that.

Wheel bearings injection pump and associated tools noted down for inclusion.

I am not against the TDi's at all, its just that for the next couple of years we will be adventuring in Europe with the possiblity of trips only to north africa. good TD5' s are much easier to find here than TDi's. So it will be a while before we overland to South Africa.

The Rest of the World (RoW) specification (300Tdi) is still being produced for use in Developing Countries and those with poor quality fuel.

RoW definition from a distibutor:

'Because our vehicles are not required to meet European emissions and safety legislation (but do), they are built to a more basic specification. In other words, they are designed to be able to tackle the arduous operating conditions experienced in developping countries such as tropical climates, high altitudes, gruelling terrain, dust and poor fuel quality.

The simpler the vehicle, the easier it is for the local Land Rover representative and independent fleet workshop to service it without the need of special vehicle diagnostics and back-up tools.

Not all territories have the facilities and equipment to service vehicles that require computerised diagnostic equipment. Therefore, when purchasing your next Land Rover for use in any developing country, insist upon ROW Specification and ensure that you are guaranteed in-territory support by the local Land Rover representative.'
AJ

[swisspace]

damn this thread just gets more and more expensive for me. I think I have the ideal solution now though. Buy a spare new 300 Tdi RoW spec Landy for the wife to drive in case the TD5 has problems. Now where did I put that Lotto ticket.

Anyone know if there is any problems registering one of these - as switzerland can be a bit funny on things like that.

Actually though its too late I have signed to buy a new (to me) second hand TD5.
If only the swiss banks could pull their finger out I would be tinkering it now ;) My first Landy - can't wait having trouble thinking of a name though.

[Murphree]

;) My first Landy - can't wait having trouble thinking of a name though. R2D2 - the far travelling robot of Star Wars fame - anyway we'll buy you a beer if and when you make it here:D

[callum]

can i go off on a bit of a tangent here...

all of you in or of africa, why do you drive landies? to me the toyota seems a bit better in terms of having stronger drivetrain, more power and pretty good spares availability. depending upon what model you get they can also be simple in terms of technology. aussies seem to swear by them and think landies are crap, but i get the feeling this is not the case, or at least not to the same extent in africa. also how does the patrol rate in the food chain, if at all. they are also well built big jap motors with strong drivetrain and big diesels, but i cant really find anywhere that has a real affinity with them.

[Eben]

Swisspace,

I'm currently planning an expedition that'll travel from Norfolk, UK to Siberia through Europe, then back through Asia, the Middle East and North Africa.

We'll be going on a convoy of 3 110's. Each one has a 2.5D NA engine. I've done most of the work to the comms / workshop truck and now have the chuck wagon on a ramp in one corner of my workshop.

To give you an idea of how seriously one has to take not only your own survival, but also the survival of the rest of the expedition, my comms truck has the following equipment for voice communication:

Nokia CK1W bluetooth car kit
Nokia CARK-91 car kit
Nokia 6090 car phone
Midland Alan 48plus multi CB
Midland Marine VHF rig - I forget the model number
Thrane & Thrane 3660 (I think that's the correct number) satellite phone
Today an ICOM IC-706 MKII-G all singing all dancing tranceiver arrived from the USA. This will also be fitted as soon as I've got the right aerials for it.

It's simple, you need backups to your backups. If CB fails, there's marine or the amateur bands. If the phone in my pocket hasn't got a signal, the one in the cradle should have. If neither has a signal, the car phone with the high power transceiver should get something. If that fails, I can always flap open the sat phone and talk back to civilisation at a Pound a minute.

I don't plan on updating a website each day while I'm on my trip. but the truck will also be kitted with an Inmarsat RBGAN ISDN satellite modem, Cisco router and Cisco wireless access point in the next few weeks. This will allow the guys in the other vehicles to print to the printer in the comms truck and to send and receive emails. Here it's the same story again: The satellite modem is the last resort. If we're parked in a McDonalds parking area or in some other hotspot the router will connect using 802.11. If there's cellphone coverage, but no wireless broadband, the router will connect using either GPRS or HSCD dialup and if that fails, it'll go for the satellite option.

In my youth I did some very stupid things and had one too many close calls out in the bush. Now I know how precious life is and I don't plan on returning to the UK in a black plastic bag because I was stupid or failed to plan.

Eben

[Marc Lurie]

all of you in or of africa, why do you drive landies? to me the toyota seems a bit better

1) They're so darned boring... :D Nothing to fix. Too reliable. :D

Seriously though, there are several reasons why I do choose a Landy over the Cruiser (Which I must say, is a serious contender). I'm talking about the Cruiser 4.2l NA pickup, not the "fancies".

1) The LR has a far stronger chassis. The chassis is not easily twisted, and if it does become damaged, it can be much more easily repaired.

2) I like the aluminium bodywork for its weight advantage, ease of maintenance, and for me in particular, the conductivity of the bodywork makes it better for radio work.

3) The speed and torque advantages of the Cruiser are not really important. Most African travel is done at below 80km/h, and unless you're dragging a trailer through soft sand, the extra torque is not really necessary. The LR is less thirsty, which is a MAJOR concern in some countries due to high fuel costs or enormous distances between available fuel.

4) I don't like the Prado or VX Cruiser because of the "extras" such as electric windows, fancy panelling, airbags, complicated electronics etc. I need a station wagon, so that means a LR. My feelings about the VX and Prado are equally valid for the Pajero, Patrol, Cherokee etc. I need a truck, not a car.

5) I far prefer the ride quality of the LR with coil springs. 12 hours a day for 10 days in a leaf sprung Toyota is more than my bum can take... :rolleyes:

6) Lastly, how many OLD Toyotas do you see in Africa? - Not many.
How many OLD Landrovers do you see in Africa? - Thousands

Regards,
Marc

[Murphree]

can i go off on a bit of a tangent here...

all of you in or of africa, why do you drive landies? to me the toyota seems a bit better in terms of having stronger drivetrain, more power and pretty good spares availability. depending upon what model you get they can also be simple in terms of technology. aussies seem to swear by them and think landies are crap, but i get the feeling this is not the case, or at least not to the same extent in africa. also how does the patrol rate in the food chain, if at all. they are also well built big jap motors with strong drivetrain and big diesels, but i cant really find anywhere that has a real affinity with them. Good question -
1. I was almost delivered in the back of my dads Series I so the connection is not just mechanical but emotional.
2. While Land Cruisers are technically competent they are sterile and have no personality - how many Land Cruiser internet forums are there? How many magazines with world wide circulation are there? How many Cruiser owners greet each other or strike up a conversation just because they share the same make of vehicle - Ans-NOT A LOT.
3. I have used both LR's and LC's in my work. For two years I used a LC GX station wagon - no frills model. Powerful reliable - loved it! But it had its faults - the rear shocks failed repeatedly due to exposure to stones picked up by the front wheels, the exhuast system broke in half due to "piddley" mounting brackets, the front wheel bearings almost siezed up, the large curved windscreen was susceptable to cracks and chipping, the gear box developed a leak at 40 000km (from the top??), and of course as with all Toyotas the disengagement of four wheel drive was a real problem, at about 50k you could not change from 1st into 2nd until the gearbox became quite warm(a fairly common Toyota problem - and not related to ambient temp and the grade of oil). It was great on long journeys tar and gravel roads but it was a bit big and heavy for real bush work and tracks. The mechanical winch never worked from new and almost wraped its cable around my front wheel - thank god for tea breaks on the Binga road! BUT that 4.2L NA engine never never never missed a beat - and serviceing - my ten year old daughter could replace the timming belt that only need to be replaced at 100K!!!
4. The LR is certainly the more competent off road vehicle and I have seen a standard 110 300 TDi pickup win a tractor pull against a LC 4.2L and also a LC fitted with a 4L Perkins (this happend in Zim at thier annual 4x4 competition sponsored by Toyota!) in fact it out pulled the LC 4.2L twice!! In the Zim 4X4 competition in the standard category the LRs generally out perform the Toyotas BUT It is its engines where LR has really lost the plot, hence my earlier comments about fitting a LC engine into a LR. All the other foibles we well know and love to hate to love???
5. On the Patrol - I have used a Patrol in Ghana over the past couple of years and must say I am very impressed -certainly the newer models a vast improvement on the older models that were a bit like an underpowered Tiger tank. I think Toyota is getting concerned about the rise of Nissan in this sector and in the pick up (bakkie) class vehicles. I still think that Toyota have the engineering and build quality edge - but with Nissans performance in the Paris Dakar and other major rallies they are definately going for the top spot.

[Murphree]

To give you an idea of how seriously one has to take not only your own survival, but also the survival of the rest of the expedition, my comms truck has the following equipment for voice communication:

Nokia CK1W bluetooth car kit
Nokia CARK-91 car kit
Nokia 6090 car phone
Midland Alan 48plus multi CB
Midland Marine VHF rig - I forget the model number
Thrane & Thrane 3660 (I think that's the correct number) satellite phone
Today an ICOM IC-706 MKII-G all singing all dancing tranceiver arrived from the USA. This will also be fitted as soon as I've got the right aerials for it.

Eben - if you bring those vehicles to Zim you WILL BE ARRESTED as a BLAIR spy and checked into the Hotel Chikirubi for some of Bobs finest hospitality:eek: :eek: :eek: I was once quizzed by the cops because I had a world space radio satelite reciever in my Landy - they were very suspect of this radio that comes from space:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Must be a colonial plot to decieve the masses:D :D Cheers Mike

[swisspace]

Okay I had a busy night dreaming about this thread ;)

question - I know people have talked about transplanting a TD5 engine in place of an older TDi and this is a complicated option due to the electronics and sensors, but what about the other way, If I found a TDi unit and reconditioned it, would it be feasable to swap it in when i do the Africa trip and then swap back to the TD5 motor when back in Europe.

Eben, I understand exactly what you are saying, but how much riskier would your trip be if you took three TD5's with suitable spares . If you are going somehwere that is so isolated and dangerous then a single vehicle is a point of failure (be it a TDi NA or TD5). As far as I can see taking a single TDi offers about the same risk as a single TD5 or for that matter any single vehicle. I can see your points about the inconvienience and misery of getting the vehicle fixed locally is less with a TDi but (and correct me if I am wrong) if you are in contact with local people i.e. a bush mechanic who could fix your TDi then you are not in a life threatening situation.

sorry for dragging this on but I am just trying to find things I haven't thought of.

[Eben]

Eben - if you bring those vehicles to Zim you WILL BE ARRESTED as a BLAIR spy and checked into the Hotel Chikirubi for some of Bobs finest hospitality:eek: :eek: :eek: I was once quizzed by the cops because I had a world space radio satelite reciever in my Landy - they were very suspect of this radio that comes from space:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Must be a colonial plot to decieve the masses:D :D Cheers Mike

Murphree,

I still own a white Defender 110 station wagon that's parked up in my garage in Harare. I had the same hassle as you with my sSnyo Worldspace radio so I took the truck down to the busy bee enterprise centre on Seke Rd where the "Car Tint Centre" made my windows black and "professionally" removed the Defender speed stripes on the sides and the doors. For what it's worth they may only have been working under a gum tree, but they did an excellent job and introduced me to T Cut.

After that, I was never stopped at another road block with that truck. Rumour has it that my truck look just like uncle Augustine's personal vehicle.

A trick to remember at road blocks is that it does their heads in when you taura shona. If the guy says, how did you sleep (warara here), you just say like a log and I had a big erection when I woke up. They normally roll on the ground ****ing themselves and let you carry on driving. :D

[Eben]

Swisspace,

I'm using NA's because they're dead cheap and simpler to fix than TDi's. I had a bad experience in Mozambique a couple of years ago with one of the first TD5's to be manufactured in South Africa. That's put me off using them in the third world. I recently bought a 110 TD5 Hicap with a very rotten chassis for farm work. I've had to send it out to an independant specialist to pop the new chassis in as there are so many wires all over the place that it'll take us months to work out how to put the thing back together again. You can't have that kind of thing in Siberia or the Sahara, but i'm looking forward to driving her around Norfolk and down the M11 to London at 70Mph when she's back with her new chassis.

I can see no reason why an expedition with three TD5's and a satellite phone won't work. In a worst case scenario, the last truck running will have enough power to slowly tow the other two back to a Land Rover dealer for repairs.

[Murphree]

After that, I was never stopped at another road block with that truck. Yep the one advantage of mine looking just like theirs - I just ran into a complete dip stick at the Nyamapanda border post:rolleyes: I just hope for your sake that Mr. Gas-Putin's lot is not so paranoid but I wouldn't count on it;) How's your Russian comrade:D

[grove]

Sorry for interrupt
Swisspace, You can get an extra fuelpump for the td5 thats easy to replace. Look here: http://www.nakatanenga.de/
Interesting to hear, that LC´s also can go wrong. Hakuna Matata, where are all the old LC in africa?
Regards

[callum]

thanks for the input on that, given me alittle more insight.

interesting to read about hte chassis. patrols/lc's always looked to have a smaller section of chassis compared to a land rover, but i've never really inspected one in the flesh. always wondered when reading about patrols/lc's about reports of cracking chassis/other bits. never seemed to be any other real problems, so it got me wondering what the hell they were doing to these things to break chassis.

also interesting about your comments regarding 80 series lc's. i would have thought they would be pretty good, given coil suspension, big diesel permanent 4x4 and there's also a base model available in africa/australia without any electrical stuff and more durable trim etc. most british ones came with front and rear lockers as standard as well, not sure if this is the case with the base models though. i suppose the issue is that they're pretty expensive vehicles, so you're not so likely to get spares again.

so is your deal vehicle something like the aussie perenties? basic 110, big fat isuzu 3.9 up front, lt95 box, uprated suspension and galvo chassis. i suppose spares might be an issue, probably not too many isuzus in africa. allegedly they were exceptionally reliable and durable though, some going 300000km without a service, then having their oil changed, a coat of paint and back out into service again.

could do with an aussie reading this and providing a bit of insight from there.

sorry for heading off topic there

callum

[Eben]

Callum,

Isuzu has a very large following in Africa. I may be out of line, but I suspect that the Isuzu I ton pickups outsell Toyota Hilux pickups. I've owned a couple of them and with the exception of a 1994 2.8TD that had a really problematic gearbox, I can only give glowing reports, but then again, there's the 1991 Toyota Hilux we had that did 1.6 million kilometers before we gave it to the guy who spent his life driving it. Four years down the line he's probably still using it every day.

I used to drive a double cab Isuzu pickup as my day to day company car in Zimbabwe. I'd replace it every two years and watched the engine sizes increase from 2.5l in the early 90's to 3.2l some time around 2001. In the later years they had all the creature comforts of a Toyota Camry or Avensis, but it was still a four wheel drive pickup that could be used to tow a boat to the beach. The best part was it was classified as a commercial vehicle, so the entire purchase could be written off against tax.

Isuzu are also very big in the 3 1/2 ton truck market.

I can't comment on the Nissan 1 ton pickups as I've never owned one, but their little 1/2 ton pickup is a truly magic thing. About as complicated as a Series 2 Land Rover.

[callum]

1.6 million kilometers...that would be a million miles, good going was it runnig on original parts by then or was it at the stage of everything having been replaced?

interesting to hear isuzu's are popular, apparantly they're pulling out of the uk passenger market soon, although i daresay their commercials will continue. also good to hear as my 110 will be isuzu powered by around easter i think. i have had a trooper waiting to have its engine removed at a friend's house since the new year, alas studies keep getting in the way of things.

thanks for the input, always keen to learn.

[armadillo@holly]

Good Lord ! Some people I know, a retired couple who simply love their Land Rover, simply took their beloved Series III to a good Mechanic, checked and fixed everything in the Landy, did install a comfortable bed in the back, did hang a-lot of jerry cans in the sides and a few more details and drove from Barcelona to Z.A. many and almost all countries in Africa and back to Barcelona.

They crossed the Sahara, Jungles and so on, anyway, this is what LR where made for. (at least the Series) Yes, the Series III did brake in nowhere, and was fixed, and keep going, easy... and Africans helped them and respected them because they are good people and because they did drive a Series.

I’ll look for their web page, so you guys can, at least, see the photos.

No tdi, Toyota, Nisan, Acme. Just a veteran Land Rover.

[Eben]

I'm busy tittivating a 1964 Series 2A with a Perkins 4.203 at the moment and it's taken me two days to do a complete rewire including adding a dual battery with split charge relay, getting the glow plug, starter and headlights onto relays, wiring in a worklight, redoing the instrument and adding a suplementary instrument panel.

That would have taken the best part of a week if I was doing a 300TDI and who knows how long on a TD5.

[Marc Lurie]

Interesting to hear, that LC´s also can go wrong. Hakuna Matata, where are all the old LC in africa?
Regards

The engines are either in another chassis, or running a water pump or generator. The bodies, chassis, and suspension are rotting away in a field somewhere. :(

[Marc Lurie]

so it got me wondering what the hell they were doing to these things to break chassis.


Oh just the usual... potholes, rivers, dunes, ravines, erosion gulleys etc :D

There are many instances where the only way through is either to take the "road" or pound through the virgin bush. It's very hard going through new bush, and in some places it's absolutely impossible without a crew of machette operators, so you have to use the road. If the road has become an errosion gulley during the rains, you just have to find a way through. The vehicle often takes a real pounding in these situations.

I don't know the Isuzu engines, but I believe that they're reliable. They certainly are popular in Southern Africa, but I don't see many in East and West Africa. I had an Isuzu 3.2l V6 petrol double cab for about a year, and it was great to drive.

Callum, the problem with the fancier LC's such as the Prado and VX (even if they have more durable trim etc.) is that they fall apart easily. Things rattle loose, dashboards start to shift and crack, knobs fall off etc. The Defender is so basic that you can literally wash the interior with a hosepipe. If you do get stuck in a river for a few hours and it fills with water, no problem. The LC pickup is the same.

Marc

Marc

[maxtd5def]

can i go off on a bit of a tangent here...

all of you in or of africa, why do you drive landies? to me the toyota seems a bit better in terms of having stronger drivetrain, more power and pretty good spares availability. depending upon what model you get they can also be simple in terms of technology. aussies seem to swear by them and think landies are crap, but i get the feeling this is not the case, or at least not to the same extent in africa. also how does the patrol rate in the food chain, if at all. they are also well built big jap motors with strong drivetrain and big diesels, but i cant really find anywhere that has a real affinity with them.

In Oz anyway, the 110 TD5 defender is becoming more popular for remote touring. Its reliable enough.

The 4.2 Nissan diesel is a slug. Alright for towing, but frustrating to drive. The 3.0 litre Nissan has real warranty problems. They go bang. Reportedly fixed now, but the word is, it seems, don't own a 3.0 litre outside of warranty.

And, the big one - The payload of a Nissan is about half a Defender. You just cannot stick as few bodies plus gear in a Nissan, and be insured. The rumour is that insurance companies are starting to put roll-overs on the weighbridge.

Toyotas? The IFS landcrushers are having cracking problems in the wishbones. They're not up to the Australian bush. The older live axle models are still sold here, but they're not perfect - the CVs do break, they're Hilux after all. Plus the landcrushers are the heaviest, thirstiest out there.

Isuzu? The 3.9 County we got is over 20 years old now. Only the Australian Army got the turbo version. Parts are getting hard to get here. I can't believe a 20 yr old Isuzu is more reliable than a new TD5 Defender.

Fuel quality is a problem. A bad batch of diesel will wreck any engine, computerised or not. I run 163 litre tanks, and will carry more if I have to, to ensure that I can fill up in the major towns, and only the major towns.

Regards
Max P

[swisspace]

Thanks for the link Grove, I had seen a swiss one where I think he had done this, he had an access hole in the rear to get to it, but I wasn't quite sure I understood his German, must concentrate more on my homework.

re seizing wheel bearings, do these have grease nipples and/or is it possible to fit them, a pal of mine who I used to trail ride with (excellent mechanic) always fitted grease nipples to his hubs. (perhaps this should be a new thread )

The other thing they do here is completely waterproof the ECU area under the seat and fit a raised breather to it. As far as I know that is all that is needed apart from snorkel and associated mechanical breathers.

still waiting to get my hands on mine to have a better look around at these things