Bio-diesel - anyone using it? [Archive]

Annette

19th Sep 2002, 02:05

:D Hehe you get your 1st reply from a V8 addict.
Beware of the standard Biodiesel, LR owners in Switzerland report that high sulphur contents harm seals, gaskets and cause a brownish deposit on your valves.
But we have seen and smelled Germans running on cheap Aldi salad or deep frying oil, not that anyone in Belgium would notice THAT smell.

The V8 comment you asked for: LPG doesn't smell and is more economic.

Mac

19th Sep 2002, 04:03

Annette,
Thanks for the reply.

Ref LPG - yes I agree and was all set to go V8 & LPG route. UNTIL I found out that it's much harder to find than diesel where I intend using it - i.e. Southern Europe/Med.

fidget2006

19th Sep 2002, 04:59

>i.e. Southern Europe/Med

..i would have to query your assumption on lpg or (GPL as its refered to in Italy) not being easily available. Its a big area here (Italy) with all sorts of manufactures are offering LPG conversions.
...If your running dual fuel you've allways got the option of using petrol.
You may also find that some cities like Rome or Milan will be banning diesal from the center (with the exception of public transport) in favour of LPG or catalytic vehicles.

rup.:)

Annette

19th Sep 2002, 07:20

I recently made a small survey among our Mediteranean club members and checked a French LPG (there it is called GPL, too) booklet.
Spain: nope, though many run illegally on Prpane gaz bottle and a kit bought in Italy.
Italy: Oh yes Rupert! It is 50 cents in Italy, about the same as in France, dearer than here or in Holland of course. Lots of LPG kits are made in Italy, and they work fine, like Lovato or Tartarini. On their web sites you can also find garages and lots of hints.
Southern France: Not as many stations as in the North, but enough not to worry, so it is pretty much like the UK.
Here in Benelux. LPG on every corner, 30 cents.
Norway: according to our Norwegian members easy to get and very much worth it. Fuel prices seem to be as ridiculous as in the UK.
Denmark similar.
Even Poland seems to have a very good LPG network

fidget2006

19th Sep 2002, 07:36

..your talking to the converted...should we mention that multi storey parking is prohibeted to LPG vehicles...?...and that you can smell a very slight smell of swiming pools? around LPG fitted vehicles.
...yes I was thinking of buying a kit from the dutch company...ive been slowly researching my best option...for my modest budget.

...well done on the site...by the way..

Annette

19th Sep 2002, 08:40

Swimming Pool? Now that is really new to me. I thought they'd add some perfume by Gucci or Versace in Italy! Better than diesel anyhow.

should we mention that multi storey parking is prohibeted to LPG
:p Please explain how a LR fits in there in the 1st place. My Yellow Cat has a very nice photo platform/roofrack now! Her in Belgium these things are usually just 2m, even than you better watch out for neon lights.

fidget2006

19th Sep 2002, 10:17

LOL...I think we have all got stuck in a multi storey at least once!...its easy getting in but taking the spiral bit back down...I had to let the tyres down and roll it through very amusing...yes I learnt my lesson.:rolleyes:

Mac

23rd Sep 2002, 00:32

Thanks for the info. Any idea about LPG in Greece? Some sources have suggested that its pretty rare, especially in the more remote regions.

fidget2006

23rd Sep 2002, 02:56

"In Greece there are 36 filling stations, with others planned for later in the year -"

http://www.shellgas.gr/site.html?lang=en

:)

"How’s this for some statistics:
Italy 1 million Autogas vehicles
Vienna, Austria 400 Autogas buses
Copenhagen, Denmark 200 Autogas buses
Australia 500,000 Autogas vehicles
United Kingdom 40,000 Autogas vehicles
Japan 90% of taxis run on Autogas"

Annette

23rd Sep 2002, 03:02

OK you could try Retsina as an alternative.
But try this:
http://www.shellgas.gr/site.html?page=91&lang=en
there are BP stations, too.
For a DIY kit, try this:
http://www.iwemalpg.com
I can't say much about it, but this seems to be a system which is far more adapted to LRs than the old installation that I have got.
But I will ask them more about their advance processor, that seems to make sense.

fidget2006

23rd Sep 2002, 03:45

...annette....if you get some info from Iwema on LPG landies can you post it on the forum? or ...put up a page on your site...the info ive read from them is very imformative but a litte confusing to a LPG novice like me!
best rup.:cool:

Annette

25th Sep 2002, 12:22

I have been collecting LPG information for some months no. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone yet who has used the DIY kit, for this is illegal in Belgium.
Here you have to see some greedy governementally approved garages, who charge you 5000 Euros for exactly nothing but a stupid stamp. GRR.
But I WILL find out how this is in other countries, I know that DIY kits seem to be legal in Norway.

fidget2006

25th Sep 2002, 23:25

....ok,... here are my growing list of links on the subject of lpg

..thanks R.
_____________________________
The LPG forum
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/

Italian GPL sites offering (LPG) info: in english
www.landi-gas.it
www.brc.it/default_EN.html
www.tartarini.it
www.landi.it
www.lovatogas.com/inglese/autogas_ing.htm
www.lovatogas.com/inglese/faqauto.htm

The Dutch LPG Kit.
www.iwemalpg.com/index.htm

Uk importer/supplier.
www.chrisperfect.com/lpg_index.html

The FAQ
www.rpiv8.com/faq-lpg.htm

Calor Autogas-sponsored Land Rover 100 2.1 ISG
http://www.4allfours.co.uk/calor01.htm

The best LINKS page.
http://www.langegas.com/linksle.htm
____________________

HCR

17th Nov 2003, 18:11

Originally posted by Annette
:D Hehe you get your 1st reply from a V8 addict.
Beware of the standard Biodiesel, LR owners in Switzerland report that high sulphur contents harm seals, gaskets and cause a brownish deposit on your valves.
But we have seen and smelled Germans running on cheap Aldi salad or deep frying oil, not that anyone in Belgium would notice THAT smell.

The V8 comment you asked for: LPG doesn't smell and is more economic.

The only way biodiesel can have sulphur in it is if someone actively puts it in. None of the ingredients has any sulphur in it, except the possibility of miniscule amounts in the oil if has been used for frying onions or garlic. That would still be much less than ULSD though.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of biodiesel leading to deposits on valves or anywhere else in the engine for that matter.

Straight vegetable oil (SVO) may in some engine lead to gumming or coking, but this is not biodiesel.

There are reports of a quarter of a million kms worth of tests here http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/

H

OldFart

17th Nov 2003, 18:58

Quote from above link...

"Caution: Use of Biodiesel may not be approved by the manufacturer of your vehicle. It is the operator's responsibility to determine the suitability of the fuel for the particular vehicle and engine configuration"

Hmmmmm .... :goofylook

HCR

17th Nov 2003, 19:18

Well, that's America for you. The country where people try to sue burger manufacturers for making them fat.

I have been working with biodiesel for a few years and while I certainly don't claim to know it all, I do know that there is not one verifiable case of biodiesel leading to engine damage.

Even the rubber pipe issue is not proven, and is irrelevant on any post 1996 vehicle anyway as rubber was discontinued to allow for the introduction of ULSD.

H

buzz

12th Jan 2005, 09:59

Basically if the biodiesel is of good quality, IE correct ph value and free from water and soaps there should be no problem at all. The diesel engine was infact designed to run on vegetable oil, Rudolph Diesel showed off his first engine running on Peanut oil!!
Incidently he was soon found murdered floating in some river!

I have started using it here, it is sold with a 20-25% Diesel mix, the very first thing I noticed is a much smoother running.
It also has much better lubricity properties.
This is apart from the much improved emissions.
The sulphur issue as has been stated previously is new to me, Biodiesel is completely sulphur free.
I am even seriously concidering making my own!!

Have a look at this , I found it quite an interesting site.
Look here (http://www.journeytoforever.org)

Biodiesel certainly is the way to go.

dborg01

13th Jan 2005, 12:35

The thing you have to fear most is the main seal on the main shaft of the Injector Pump. To start from it's tail, if this fails to hold the fuel from leaking you'll end up with a nasty, busted timing belt!!!

The material used for this seal might easily withstand diesel but that does not mean it is going to withstand anything else, including biodiesel. It's true that biodiesel and vegetable oil behave very much the same way of diesel but their molecular structure is different. This might 'attack' rubber, causing it to crack, or become smaller, or even swell and pop out of place! It seems that very few people are considering this problem and I would very much appreciate if anyone can prove any safe results!!

Anyway, as to the engine itself, using biodiesel is actually better. Like buzz said, the diesel engine was designed for such fuel and it had to be 'modified' to run on diesel!! Biodiesel is better lubricating and gives better compression but might be of a slight problem to some injectors.

I am doing some research on my own type of seal which is used on the 2.5 N/A (12J), injector pump (Lucas CAV), so if anyone has some info I'd really be happy to have it!!!!!!

buzz

13th Jan 2005, 15:05

I am still pretty sure that problems arise from poor quality Biodiesel.
Daniel I heard that our "dept. of environment" was using it but stopped because it caused problems, also if you look on the 4X4 forums there are people who had problems too. I am pretty sure that our biodiesel supplier is abusing of his monopoly and just pumping a poor quality fuel.
If the methoxide mixture is not correct and mixed with the wrong quantity of WVO then I think this is where inconsistencies in the chemistry arises.
There is also a process known as "washing" that has to be carried out.
I am dubious of whether the process is being done properly, where ever I have read there have been no problems with pumps rubber, combustion power etc.
I am going to be making my own in the very near future and will be making sure of quality.

*Daniel* Click on the link I posted too there is quite a lot of info about biodiesel and all about the process.

Sandy M.

14th Jan 2005, 10:01

Basically if the biodiesel is of good quality, IE correct ph value and free from water and soaps there should be no problem at all.........
..................I am even seriously concidering making my own!!.......
Biodiesel certainly is the way to go.

Or you could buy it ready made, at the pumps. If you live in Scotland.

http://www.argentenergy.com/

seems that the idea is slowly catching on.

200Tdi, you know it makes sense.

HCR

15th Jan 2005, 09:15

Or you could buy it ready made, at the pumps. If you live in Scotland.

http://www.argentenergy.com/

seems that the idea is slowly catching on.

200Tdi, you know it makes sense.

Ah, but that isn't biodiesel. It is 95% fossil diesel, 5% biodiesel, usually called B5. B5 meets BS EN 590, the specification for diesel fuel so is by definition covered by all engine manufacturers' warranties.

Regarding the comment earlier re rubber components, particularly in the IP; all post '96 engines should be rubber free.

H

Sandy M.

15th Jan 2005, 18:08

Ah, but that isn't biodiesel. It is 95% fossil diesel, 5% biodiesel, usually called B5. B5 meets BS EN 590, the specification for diesel fuel so is by definition covered by all engine manufacturers' warranties.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Regarding the comment earlier re rubber components, particularly in the IP; all post '96 engines should be rubber free.
H

:banghead: :banghead: and here is me all pleased with meself after replacing my petrol engine with a 200Tdi - and making up custom fuel lines with reinforced rubber.

200Tdi, you know it used to make sense :D

HCR

15th Jan 2005, 23:02

ChrisD

16th Jan 2005, 09:48

The diesel engine was infact designed to run on vegetable oil, Rudolph Diesel showed off his first engine running on Peanut oil!!
Incidently he was soon found murdered floating in some river!

IIRC, Dr Diesel was not found murdered, he disappeared from an overnight ferry crossing just after discussing his new engines with the Admiralty. Rumour cannot agree on whether it was the Admiralty or the Kreigsmarine that "did" him!

His initial idea was for an internal combustion engine running on coal, this was marginally successful but the fuel handlig problems made it impractical. Later solved by Doxfords with a tractical 2-strke marine engine.

Incidentally, until recently there were four (I think) genuine "Diesel" engines kept as standby generators at Rowntrees factory in York (If anyone knows better, please let me know)

ChrisD

dborg01

17th Jan 2005, 15:28

How does this B5 and Diesel compare in price and consumption? I intend coming to live in Scotland and also intend to buy a landy there. I don't think it will be a TDi as I might not afford more than a 2.5 N/A at first.

With my current 2.5 N/A on a 90, here in Malta, running on Diesel, I get around 25mpg. (I have treated the engine with a specific treatment, and use a specific fuel additive)

How does that sound?

eightpot

17th Jan 2005, 16:20

What would happen if you threw a few litres of veg oil into a tank of deisel?
Would it mix?? Would it work??
:confused:

Carl

17th Jan 2005, 17:57

Yep. At least in the summer it did.

Carl

dynamited

17th Jan 2005, 18:06

http://www.boulderbiodiesel.com/tim/Rudolph/index.jsp

Here you go... the history behind the diesel engine.

eightpot

17th Jan 2005, 18:30

Just been reading a few of the forums on the subject, and noticed that the 2.5n'a fuel pump aint ideal for using SVO.
I was going to experiment with a 20% mix in with regular diesel, but does anyone know if that would harm the pump?

Cheers

HCR

17th Jan 2005, 18:50

To answer a couple of questions:
B5 is usually the same price as normal diesel, as biodiesel, which costs a bit more to make than regular diesel has a 20 pence per litre tax break which evens the two up.

The problem with SVO is that it is quite a bit more viscous than diesel, especially at lower temperatures. At 80C they are about the same though. 20% would probably be alright in the summer, but could be very risky in the winter.

Buy a heated conversion if you want to run SVO - link in my signature.