Veg oil in a series diesel.....

[pablopancake]

Hello all!

Just registered :D

usual story i'm sure :rolleyes: I'm fed up with paying road tax and having my expensive suspension cream crackered by humps, and i'm fed up with paying through the nose for fuel etc etc, so i'm retiring from speed and planning a life long love affair with a landie, even though my old man, and mrs, and mates think i'm barmy.....

my plan....

LWB station wagon, tax free so series II/A

Diesel of course (not too clued up on what options are out there, what type of pump etc)

split diesel/veg oil system

I've done a search and found lots on later TDi lumps, but i'm a bit confused as some posts are older than others, please can you guys answer me these quick Q's.....

1. is the info on supermarket veg oil being declared on an EX103 form at 27.1p per litre still correct

2. is the most common diesel lump in the models i'm looking at a 2. 25 perkins? if so, is this pump ok with veg oil

3. prob looking at the 475 quid twin tank system from dieselveg, recommended??

in general, i'm not looking for the cheapest possible conversion (although cost is a factor) but a good reliable way to save money in the very long run, any enviromental savings are a bonus, but the main one is resisting the ever increasing fuel duty

i get quite attached to my vehicles so once i've built this up, i shall prob be buried in it :p

cheers in advance,

Pabs

[pablopancake]

or maybe the smartveg is the kit to go with?

cheers

pabs

[reedx]

I'm putting a dieselveg kit in my 110. Have a look at the following part of my website which has some specific LR information. HMRC are currently trying to put SVO users on the fuel substitute rate of 47.1 p/litre. :(

http://www.reedx.net/landrover/mods/vegoil/index.htm

Colin

[pablopancake]

cheers colin :D i shall have a read, so.....if it's 47.1, if you're using oil straight from the bottle the saving is minimal :confused: it's time to go see the local chippie, balti and chinese takeaway about their old oil

[reedx]

so.....if it's 47.1, if you're using oil straight from the bottle the saving is minimal :confused:

It depends if you're doing it for cost saving or environmental reasons. I accept I may not see my £475 outlay in cost savings. Also have a look on the following forum

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

Colin

[buzz]

there is a thread in my signature may interest you.

[pablopancake]

cheers for the replies, i'm starting to get my head round it....

as for recovering costs, i'm thinking very long term, but if SVO (correct term for bottled veg oil?) is going to be lumped in with pump diesel duty then the savings are going to get slimmer and slimmer :(

am i right in thinking homebrew biodiesel is currently the lower rate of 27.1p p litre, and looking to stay that way??

call me lazy, but i'm a bit put off with the effort required to produce it, i never was much cop at chemistry so it's a bit baffling at the moment, plus i'd be looking for enough to cover 300-400 miles a week.

anyone got any pics of their set up, space required and ideas of time required to produce x amount? or i could visit anyone in the midlands/leicester/coalville/loughborough for a cup o tea and a demo :D

thanks for the replies again dudes

pabs

[buzz]

This is the thread I meant, photos too

http://www.landrovernet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24986

[pablopancake]

ah ha! cheers buzz :D

it's making more sense now, i can see myself knocking one of those plants up

time to copy, paste, edit, print, read and digest before going any further

does anyone know if there any meets or anything coming up in the next month or so in the midlands area, would be nice to have a chin wag with folks in the know on this subject

ta again,

pabs

[denty]

The diesel engine found in Series Land Rovers is the Land Rover 2.25. The injector pump is Lucas CAV and therefore will destroy itself if you use veg oil. It may take a few miles but it will.
A possibilty is fitting a different engine. Tdi's use Bosch pumps, as do a variety of other good conversions, like Isuzu 2.8TD for example.

[andreadavide]

I subscribe what Denty said.
In Germany the use of SVO is encouraged by the government and there are a few companies specialised in conversions.
They (company diesel-therm.de) said that they don't suggest the use of SVA on a CAV pump.

Andrea

[pablopancake]

cheers for all the info :D

looks like mt orig ignorance of spend 500 quid on a kit and use svo has mutated into build a biodiesel plant and do a proper job

interested to see what happens to the duty today :rolleyes:

now where can we get some more money from, i know lets mug drivers again :o surprise

[reedx]

They (company diesel-therm.de) said that they don't suggest the use of SVA on a CAV pump.

Yes don't use cold SVO with a CAV pump, but with a properly fitted twin tank system there should be no problem. Speak to Nick at Dieselveg and he'll answer any of your questions.

Colin

[buzz]

You can also fit some form of in line heater working off the 12 volt supply.
Basically SVO has a higher viscosity and needs reducing.
This is what converting to biodiesel is all about.
Actualy Biodiesel is not the correct term as biodiesel refers to the mixture of diesel and the treated SVO.

Methylester is the technical name of the treated SVO.

Tho Biodiesel is the term most know as the treated SVO.

Using twin tanks, one for diesel the other for SVO is merely to heat up the engine and fuel part to thin out the SVO to enable use in the engine.
Idealy start and stop on Diesel and use SVO in between.

Another thing to watch out for is rubber components.
Rubber fuel lines may deteriorate using bio-fuels.;)

[reedx]

Another thing to watch out for is rubber components.
Rubber fuel lines may deteriorate using bio-fuels.;)

Isn't that only with biodiesel? Methanol left from the manufacturing process rots natural rubber.
Colin

[pablopancake]

cheers ;)

so can anyone clue me up on the restrictions regarding home biodiesel plants? can you just rig one up in the shed or garage? or is there a set of guidelines i haven't found yet?

cheers

pabs :D

[andreadavide]

from the common sense point of view just the hazmat rules for methanol and lye, and the usual standard things for mixers and electricity.
Other than that both the raw oil and the biodiesel should be riskfree, but I am pretty confident that some rolls of pretty sticky red tape are on their way...
Andrea

[pablopancake]

a ha!

methanol

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Methanol.html

lye

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Sodium%A0Hydroxide.html

reportable quantity means do as you like below the stated quantity, inform local fire dept etc if above those quants.

when you regiester to produce your own biodiesel, do you get a visit from health and safety to check your set up?

peace

pabs

[pablopancake]

ah ha!

anyone got any experience with...

http://www.rixbiodiesel.co.uk/

fairly local supply if my home brew bio doesn't work out

[conkers]

Hi pablopancake I use RIX Biodiesel all the time it's a pretty good fuel competetively priced my only problem with it is it's only 5% bio which I rekon is a cop out it should be at least20% bio but apart from that it's a good fuel some of the benefits of bio without any of the problems associated with bio

[pablopancake]

i have a rix pump near me, same price as diesel, but you are right 5% is just enough to call it biodiesel, it's hardly earth shattering :D

I called peak oils in chesterfield who do not supply to the public, i still have aid fuel oils in cannock to try as i'd qquite like to pick it up on a semi regular basis in 20-25 litre cans if possible

the hunt continues :rolleyes:

[buzz]

Isn't that only with biodiesel? Methanol left from the manufacturing process rots natural rubber.
Colin


Not quite 100% sure as processing biodiesel should leave no residual Methanol if produced properly.
Heating the fuel to around 80 degrees centigrade should evaporate any left over.

[pablopancake]

cheers buzz :D

anyone got any info on the storage requirements?

i'm not sure whether i should build a custom enclosure around my little plant in my back garden, or put it in my lock up up the road (which has no power, so would have to run on batteries/jump start power packs or the like, or gas heating....

peace

pabs

[Snagger]

Ok, I've been following all the related threads, but I'm a bit thick, so please confirm if I've got this right.

I have a 109 with 3 fuel tanks (each with matching return lines) and a 2.5 nad 12J (later to be 19J, but similar injector pump).

To run on veg oil, it sounds like I can use 2 of the tanks, with the third for diesel for starting and purging. Once the enigine is warm, with a cooling system based heat exchanger, I could run on neat, untreated veg oil. Is that correct?

The other thing is that I have seen 12V fuel heaters for this sort of application being sold by a company on ebay. This would allow a quicker change over onto veg oil as the heater works irrespective of engine temperature. The heater is normally fitted before the fuel filter, but they have one type which heats the line between the filter and injector pump too. Do you know if these are any good, as it would be a neater installation than the heat exchanger, and wouldn't reduce cabin heater efficiency?

[pablopancake]

that was my plan, but i've changed based on uncertainty of duty rate of neat veg oil and damage to the injector pump.

Can anyone help with the registering side of things, what's the experience with the revenue people?

I have sorted the location for my biod plant, i have the business premises of a friend with an unused back yard, complete with shed that should hold an oil drum scale set up :D

I'm there two nights a week without fail, so should be able to keep the process moving along with an extra visit or two

also, the pub he owns will be providing the oil :D

so i'm interested to find out what the restrictions are for when they come and inspect.......

cheers

pabs

[pablopancake]

cool! i'm finding a zillion different ways of doing the bio thing, but this look slike the safest..............no naked flame around the hot oil :D

http://www.riverstonesbiodiesel.com/appleseed/first.php

most straight forward and descriptive walk through i've found yet

[conkers]

get in touch with these people they run weekend courses on how to set up your own plant from industrial scale down to shed homebrewing as well as all the tax info you need
http://www.lowimpact.org/

[Converse]

This is an interesting thread. I'm trying to get my head round everything here:-

I could use pure veg oil as a replacement fuel in my 109 2.25 diesel but it would very likely wreck the pump?

I could go for a twin tank system - dieselveg or smartveg - but there still may be issues with the pump?

I could make my own biodiesel and either use that neat or mixed with mineral diesel but the pump may still be at risk particularly in the colder winter months?

I could do a belt and braces job and produce my own biodiesel and use that in a twin tank system where potential damage to the pump is minimised ?

I'm currently paying £1.05 a litre for mineral diesel. It wouldnt take very long to break even which ever system I used.

I may try to produce 20 litres of biodiesel a week and use that in a 50/50 mix with mineral diesel.

Last thought - how do you dispose of al the waste products when producing biodiesel?

[pablopancake]

cheers for the link conkers :beer: :D

hello converse, i'm still learning so don't take the below as gospel...


This is an interesting thread. I'm trying to get my head round everything here:-

I could use pure veg oil as a replacement fuel in my 109 2.25 diesel but it would very likely wreck the pump?

*that's my understanding

I could go for a twin tank system - dieselveg or smartveg - but there still may be issues with the pump?

*i believe so, even though the twin tank kits usually have a pre heater or heat exchanger, it's still a bit too thick

I could make my own biodiesel and either use that neat or mixed with mineral diesel but the pump may still be at risk particularly in the colder winter months?

*if well produced, bio should run all summer long with no ill effects, it's only required to mix with regular diesel in cold weather to stop it crystalising/waxing up

I could do a belt and braces job and produce my own biodiesel and use that in a twin tank system where potential damage to the pump is minimised ?

*should be no damage to pump to worry about

I'm currently paying £1.05 a litre for mineral diesel. It wouldnt take very long to break even which ever system I used.

I may try to produce 20 litres of biodiesel a week and use that in a 50/50 mix with mineral diesel.

Last thought - how do you dispose of al the waste products when producing biodiesel?

still working on that, the biggest is the glycerine (from pics looks like approx. 20% of a drum is glycerine....make your own land rover embossed soap? :D scent of a land rover :D

I'll start a new thread when i've got it all straight in my head, i shall be doing the full biodiesel thing, providing i don't find any health/safety issues to stop me

[rusty_wingnut]

Ok, I've been following all the related threads, but I'm a bit thick, so please confirm if I've got this right.

I have a 109 with 3 fuel tanks (each with matching return lines) and a 2.5 nad 12J (later to be 19J, but similar injector pump).

To run on veg oil, it sounds like I can use 2 of the tanks, with the third for diesel for starting and purging. Once the enigine is warm, with a cooling system based heat exchanger, I could run on neat, untreated veg oil. Is that correct?

The other thing is that I have seen 12V fuel heaters for this sort of application being sold by a company on ebay. This would allow a quicker change over onto veg oil as the heater works irrespective of engine temperature. The heater is normally fitted before the fuel filter, but they have one type which heats the line between the filter and injector pump too. Do you know if these are any good, as it would be a neater installation than the heat exchanger, and wouldn't reduce cabin heater efficiency?

in my opinion yes, you could run with heated biodiesel directly with the CAV pump. you can use a heat exchanger off the heater system, but as you rightly point out you need to wait for the engine to heat up [on diesel i am led to believe this takes longer compared to a petrol unit] i would suggest that the better option is to rig up two inline heaters to decrease the viscosity of the biodiesel. with two heaters you have less temperature drop in the line and in theory it should work better than one. also it would be best to heat the diesel before it reaches the injecotr pump, as in the cold weather the injector pump will invariably be cold especially with the wind whistling over it whilst you drive.

not sure on the cabin heater efficiency as i haven't even been in a vehicle with a bio conversion. however i would think that it could reduce the efficiency as that is how heat exchangers work. if you are heating cool biodiesel you will experience a temperature drop on the line you use to heat the cool biodiesel.

does anybody have the respective viscosity of both normal diesel and veg oil? and a rough length and diameter of a 19j diesel line?

[Snagger]

does anybody have the respective viscosity of both normal diesel and veg oil? and a rough length and diameter of a 19j diesel line?

1/4" diameter, about 2' from filter to pump. I think you'd need to heat on the pump side of the filter to prevent pump damage, but might suffer waxing in the filter if the fuel isn't heated there too.

There are a lot of the electrical heaters on ebay (enter "fuel heaters" in the search box). I was looking closely at the VOW2 range, particularyly the VOW2C/D or VOW2F. The C and D heat before and after the filter. The F onlt heats after the filter, but has additional engine coolant heat exchangers.

[Converse]

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html this site seems to be the most informative.
I like their 5 gallon processor - might have a go at that

[rusty_wingnut]

i'll give the old bernoulli equation a go and work out at which temperature the veg oil needs to enter the pump at to be at roughly the same viscosity as diesel.

[Converse]

I read somewhere on the web last night (cant remember where now) of problems with the land rover filter when warm oil passes through. The glue which holds the filter element together can melt and the filter disintegrates.

[Converse]

i'll give the old bernoulli equation a go and work out at which temperature the veg oil needs to enter the pump at to be at roughly the same viscosity as diesel.

One of the few truly scientific studies available found that veg-oil must be heated to 150 deg C (302 deg F) to achieve the same viscosity and fuel performance as petro-diesel: "Atomisation tests showed that at 150 deg C the performance of the rapeseed oil is comparable with that of the diesel oil." See the European Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) study:
http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm (http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm)

[candpdoyle]

Hi

Have any of you tried running on 50/50 wvo diesel?? I have just started this after seeing it on a couple of sites... Sems to be working fine so far although does take a bit more cranking in the morning to start and runs a bit rough until the engine warms up. My perkins 4.203 seems to like it once warm and runs well giving a bit more power and ever so slightly better fuel consumption.

Not been doing it long so dont know if there will be any long term effects but have access to wvo as i am a chef so is fairly cheap to run.:D

Chris