300TDi vs TD5

[bvudzichena]

I've decided that the time has come to buy myself a Discovery.

Having recently moved from one country to another, I'm not too flush at the moment, so it's going to have to be a late 300TDi or an early TD5.

What are the pros and cons of the various vehicles? What should I look out for, what should I grab and what should I avoid at all costs?

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

[whitey]

I'm not qualified to answer your question fully, I've never owned a TD5 and have only recently purchased a late 300TDi but I can tell you all is going well and I've been impressed with cars overall performance, especially the fuel economy. 800k on a full tank(i previously owned a thirsty Toyota Surf 2.4td). If you can put up with the noise and vibration all the Disco models seem to suffer with I'm sure you'll be happy with which ever model.

[glacierboy]

For ease of repair and service, I would go for a 300TDi.... if you are away from clever diagnostic equipment, at least you can get a TDi back on the road in most cases.

The TD5 is a more refined engine, but it is electro-mechanical, and therefore harder to work on.

[Peter Cowin]

I have 2 Disco's a 200 TDi for off roading and a 300 TDi for normal transport.
I looked at the TD5 before opting for the 300. I asked the same question at each garage which was "What will be the state of the computer chips and electronics after 100K milles?" :rolleyes:
As no one could give me an answer I opted for the 300. I have done 140K miles in it without any problems.:D
Maintenance on the 300 is easy, with no fancy electrics to go wrong, parts interchangable with RR. :)
So I leave it up to you. Plain and simple or fancy and complicated.

[andyb43]

I love the TD5. Have used the 200/300 in the army and still love the TD5.

Every one harps on about the Bush mechanics C**p but if you have a TD5 with the harness mod in the injectors then why do you need a Bush Mechanic in the first place?

The 300 you have a cam belt and tapets to snap & adjust along with all the shoddy pre BMW/Ford ownership quality issues, and the 200/300's are going to be old and wearing out.

All you have to do with a TD5 is change the oil and filters.

The quality control is slightly better I say slightly.

If the electronics die the system goes in to limp mode and if you are in the bush then you pull out your laptop with the list of land rover dealers world wide. or you can now buy the software for less than the price of an ARB bumper, so if you can afford the bumper and are concerned then spend the little extra on a computer.

On the subject of the ECU :eek: If it getts swamped then open it up rinse with fresh water (Buxton spring not evion):D and allow to dry put back togeather and hay presto!

So all you "Oh my god its got a chip in dinosaurs move on" or we would be still using beads to work out the cost of our next mod and chatting to each other with flags. I certanly wouldn't be ranting on via the internet.:rolleyes:

Phew got that out. Well light the touch paper and run:D If this dosent start inteligent debate then "I will get me coat";)

[glacierboy]

I completely agree that the TD5 is a more refined and (gulp) better engine overall, but my point is that if you take your vehicle off the beaten track, and away from modern garage facilities, a 300TDi is more likely to be field repairable.

As with most cases, you choose a car that best suits your environment.

[charliedenny]

td5 is a good engine but as said above if you are going in country the tdi is a good bet
I use the following KISS Keep It Simple Stupid!

[andyb43]

;) But if its more reliable in the first place then why worry about it breaking down.

Thats why the third world lives for Toyota, even the new Land Cruiser with its computers is the logical choice for overlanders, even though I chose a Disco TD5 to travel around the world the toyota was the logical but the romantic in me went for the Land Rover.

;)

[dazzerboy]

I love the TD5. Have used the 200/300 in the army and still love the TD5.

Every one harps on about the Bush mechanics C**p but if you have a TD5 with the harness mod in the injectors then why do you need a Bush Mechanic in the first place?

The 300 you have a cam belt and tapets to snap & adjust along with all the shoddy pre BMW/Ford ownership quality issues, and the 200/300's are going to be old and wearing out.

All you have to do with a TD5 is change the oil and filters.

The quality control is slightly better I say slightly.

If the electronics die the system goes in to limp mode and if you are in the bush then you pull out your laptop with the list of land rover dealers world wide. or you can now buy the software for less than the price of an ARB bumper, so if you can afford the bumper and are concerned then spend the little extra on a computer.

On the subject of the ECU :eek: If it getts swamped then open it up rinse with fresh water (Buxton spring not evion):D and allow to dry put back togeather and hay presto!

So all you "Oh my god its got a chip in dinosaurs move on" or we would be still using beads to work out the cost of our next mod and chatting to each other with flags. I certanly wouldn't be ranting on via the internet.:rolleyes:

Phew got that out. Well light the touch paper and run:D If this dosent start inteligent debate then "I will get me coat";)

i agree change the oil and filters every 6000 miles or so :D

[bvudzichena]

I found a really nice TD5 in the local auto trader and went off to look at it this morning, but when I got there, I discovered he also had this little guy for sale, so no prizes for guessing what I rode home on :D

[Gas Gas Ohlins]

Your post should`ve read Land Rover v Honda then?....




:D

[bvudzichena]

Your post should`ve read Land Rover v Honda then?....
:D

A Blackbird is much more scarse than a Disco. Even nin the days when I lived in Zimbabwe, I regularly scanned the bike trader in this country for a good few years looking for one that's in good condition, so when this one came along (quite by accident) I knew it was now or never.

For the record, she goes like stink :p

[andyb43]

Verrrrrry nice.

:D

[kevinrbeech]

I love the TD5. Have used the 200/300 in the army and still love the TD5.

Every one harps on about the Bush mechanics C**p but if you have a TD5 with the harness mod in the injectors then why do you need a Bush Mechanic in the first place?

The 300 you have a cam belt and tapets to snap & adjust along with all the shoddy pre BMW/Ford ownership quality issues, and the 200/300's are going to be old and wearing out.

All you have to do with a TD5 is change the oil and filters.

The quality control is slightly better I say slightly.

If the electronics die the system goes in to limp mode and if you are in the bush then you pull out your laptop with the list of land rover dealers world wide. or you can now buy the software for less than the price of an ARB bumper, so if you can afford the bumper and are concerned then spend the little extra on a computer.

On the subject of the ECU :eek: If it getts swamped then open it up rinse with fresh water (Buxton spring not evion):D and allow to dry put back togeather and hay presto!

So all you "Oh my god its got a chip in dinosaurs move on" or we would be still using beads to work out the cost of our next mod and chatting to each other with flags. I certanly wouldn't be ranting on via the internet.:rolleyes:

Phew got that out. Well light the touch paper and run:D If this dosent start inteligent debate then "I will get me coat";)

Two years ago when my water pump failed in Tunisia (5 months old, genuine LR fitted by them for the trip) on my 200 tdi, I phoned my local LR dealer for advice. I was told that it would be replaced FOC when I returned home.
I enquired about North African support and was told the nearest dealer was in Dubai, that's a long way to limp home.

The other option was France, the dealer listed in the LR world dealers had changed to Toyota, and when we finally found the current dealer he said it would take 10 days to get the part. We actually managed to locate a Britpart part in Marsielle delivered to our hotel by an independent French supplier.

Further, most early 200/300's have certain electrics, that have failed, bypassed to keep them on the road due to the replacement part being "NO LONGER AVAILABLE", these range from alarm spiders to abs various sensors, etc.

Where will this leave a TD5 when they are 10 years plus old?

I do carry a laptop for mapping but would not feel confident taking a TD5 to a country with no LR support whatsoever.

LAND ROVER DO NOT OFFER WORLDWIDE SUPPORT - BELIEVE ME!

[bvudzichena]

Guys, guys, guys!

The whole idea behind buying the Disco is to use as a car to commute between home and work instead of using the Merc.

I have an extremely well prepared Defender 110 that I use for adventures around Africa. You don't see the WHO, UN, ICRC or Mercyships driving around in Disco's in the third world. Those NGO's that still use Land Rovers, use Defenders. IMHO Disco's aren't intended for overland adventures. They are cars that can be used off road!

[glacierboy]

Okay, fair enough.... but 300 TDi Disco's are excellent for expedition work, especially if you are carrying people, rather than equipment...

[Disco69]

There's a lot more electrickery on my td5 than just the engine management - what about the air suspension, ACE, ABS, traction control etc. All these things have electrical conections that can stop working at any time - ACE and air sus also have lots of pipework that can get damaged.
Personally I don't think I would have spent so much on buying a td5 that didn't have so many toys on it. In my opinion, if you haven't got all the toys you might as well have a late 300tdi and a lot of change left over!

I'm not fully up to speed on all the electrickery but I'm guessing that if the traction control stops working then there'll be no four wheel drive because there's no diff lock. Where does that leave you? - or am I missing something?
If the air suspention dies - does the vehicle just sink down onto it axle stops?
What about the ACE - if it fails do you end up with a vehicle that doesn't have an antiroll bar at all?

If I was going far off the beaten track, I would be a lot more confident in a 300tdi with just basic mechanicals - coil springs nd antiroll bars, diff lock engaged by a lever (even though the linkages get stiff/seize when not used enough, you can still crawl underneath and engage it!) and a proven to be reliable engine.
Even if things do go wrong with a 300tdi, parts are now comparatively very cheap - you could afford to change quite a few parts to fix one for the same cost that a dealer would charge to indentify a fault on a td5!!!

[Gas Gas Ohlins]

When my P38 `s compressor died(and frequently thereafter a new one was fitted due to ECU issues..)...it just sank onto the bump stops...mmm...had the same ride experience of my last lightweight....

but with more interior luxury!!!...the usual British workmanship not keeping on par with electrics....


:D

[Henk Coetzee]

Guys, guys, guys!

The whole idea behind buying the Disco is to use as a car to commute between home and work instead of using the Merc.

For this either of them will suffice. I commute in a 300Tdi which, contrary to what some people say burbles around in traffic admirably. I have no personal experience of the TD5, but bear in mind that it comes with lots and lots of electronics. Most of the problems that I've heard about on Disco 2s have been electronic. If it's only going to be used in and around Pretoria, parts and maintenance shouldn't be a problem.

IMHO Disco's aren't intended for overland adventures. They are cars that can be used off road!

They are a tad cramped for overlanding, and certainly don't have many places that you can bolt things on outside, as with the Defender, but the Disco 1 is extremely capable off road. Bear in mind that it is based on a Classic Rangie, which is something of an off road legend. The fact that most Discos never see mud and rocks, doesn't mean that they aren't up there with the best of them when they do.

[bvudzichena]

Henk

Waar bly jy in Pretoria?

Ekke

[kep]

it'll always be a 300 tdi for me, just got rid of my td5 and gone back to a 300 tdi. fed up with all those niggly electric faults on my previous td5 , certainly would'nt do an overland in a td5! had enough trouble driving around the lake district in it with it's fairy light electics, although my 300 is'nt totally electric free - i'm afraid it has electric windows so i'm just waitng for those to fail but at least i'll get home without any warning lights flashing telling me to get to a land rover dealer asap to empty my wallet!

[NomadABC]

Like it or not, we are all going to have to get used to much greater use of electronics on our cars. It is unfortunate that LR have such a poor ability to maintain any sort of reliability when it comes to them, whereas other manufacturers have had nothing like the problems.

I can vividly remember my step-father moaning about the introduction of electronic ignition...

"ah lad, when that packs up at the side of the road your stuck. At least with points to can get 'em going again".

It seems where having the same discussion now, but I can't see anyone suggestion we go back to points and coils. If LR can sort it's reliability problems, we will stop talking like old men;)

Back to the question: IMHO the Td5 is a far better made car, with virtually no evidence of the "parts bin" mentality of British Leyland that LR inherited. It is hugely better on-road than the Tdi, It doesn't even feel like it's made in England (sadly, I mean that as a compliment).

In comparision, my last Tdi felt and looked a bit thrown together, interior panels did not fit together, panel gaps were uneven and every window leaked. That said, It still made me smile when I drove it and, yes, I preferred the engine characteristics to the Td5, other than it's ability to lose oil from every orifice.

In summary, if you've got £5k, get a Tdi. If you've got £10k, get a Td5. Either way you will not be disapointed. Just don't expect either to have modern-day reliability.

[Henk Coetzee]

Henk

Waar bly jy in Pretoria?

Ekke

Jy't 'n PM

[YUG]

IMHO Disco's aren't intended for overland adventures. They are cars that can be used off road!

Dam..... i wish i had known that before i did 100k of overlanding in my Discovery!!!!!:D

[bvudzichena]

Let the record reflect that I have this day bought myself a 2000 Discovery TD5 GS.

This is the first used car I've ever bought that was a case of "hop in and go". There are no major issues with the truck. It has coil springs, manual seats and not much electronics - compared to the ES model that I almost bought.

I'll let you know how things pan out.

Tomorrow I need to get the netstar fitted and then on Thursday it's the window film.

Next week, I'll plumb in the GPS, the bluetooth kit and the Worldspace.

[HarryD]

Let the record reflect that I have this day bought myself a 2000 Discovery TD5 GS.

This is the first used car I've ever bought that was a case of "hop in and go". There are no major issues with the truck. It has coil springs, manual seats and not much electronics - compared to the ES model that I almost bought.

I'll let you know how things pan out.

.
Just bought the same car , same spec (pick it up in a few days) and have sold the 300Tdi to an enthusiast. Let us know how things pan out.

[bvudzichena]

I have oil dripping from the engine.

I'm not sure where it's coming from, but there's a crossmember that sits between the front wheels and it's got two little lines of oil coming from some place higher.

It's a good thing that I bought a 24 month extended warranty with the vehicle...

[bvudzichena]

Now the fun starts

Last night I crawled under the truck to find out where the oil was coming from. I moved over a bee (as you call them in the UK - "African Killer Bee") and it stung me. I'm slightly allergic, didn't think much of it and carried on looking for the source of the oil.

After a couple of minutes I had trouble breathing, so I went to look for my phenergran. I then discovered that my "trusty" domestic worker had nicked every pill in the bottle.

Realising I had a problem, I drove down to the A&E. Whilst backing out of the driveway, I reversed into the wall, bending the spare wheel carrier.

This is not a windup.

By the time I got to hospital, they needed to put me onto a respirator and give me adrenaline injections.

They eventually discharged me at 5:00am.

During the day I called the stealer that I bought the car from and told him about the oil leak. He asked me to take it to a franchised dealer, for them to find out what's wrong. Guess who's getting a new turbo! AND I'm not paying for it as it's under the "warranty". The only thing is the dealer wants the vehicle for two days and he can only start work on 10 October.

Let's hope this is the only thing that packs up...

[bvudzichena]

13 months down the line and mine is a true tale of woe.

Before I continue, it must be noted that I took the vehicle to one of the better Land Rover dealers (South African readers should know who Waterford Land Rover are) who inspected the vehicle and gave it a clean bill of health prior to me buying it.

Let's start with that infamous oil leak. When I bought the truck, I paid extra for a 24 month extended warranty. So I took the truck to the dealers on the appointed day and told them before starting work that they needed an authorisation from SA Warranties.

I was told to take my truck elsewhere as they were not interested in dealing with insurance companies.

Two of my distant cousins used to own one of the independent Land Rover workshops in Pretoria called Independent 4x4. I called my cousin and asked him to sort the truck out. His people dealt with SA Warranties and a couple of days later I had a truck with a working turbo. Unfortunately I had to pay a shortfall of R9,000 (that's +/- £650) as SA Warranties only paid a small amount of the claim due to the truck's "high mileage".

I could also tell you about SA Warranties screwing me on the car rental but let's keep to the Land Rover bits.

With the new turbo fitted, the truck pulled like a train, but there was still oil dripping onto my garage floor.

So back to Independent 4x4. One bottle of UV indicator later and we realised that the leak was coming from the gearbox. I got hold of SA Warranties and the truck went back into the workshop. The gearbox was dropped, the slipping torque converter was fixed / replaced and the seals that were leaking were replaced. I was out of pocket another £650.

All went well for a couple of weeks.

One morning I noticed another oil leak. I figured it had to be coming from the engine, but when I got under the truck I found it was coming from the gearbox. Strange thing is that the oil was black, not red. I drained the oil, removed the sump (won't be doing that any time soon) and fitted a new gearbox oil filter, fitted all new gaskets and filled the gearbox with ATF.

I asked the learned people of the forum about the black oil and was told that it's the clutches burning out.

I started making enquiries as to how we could go about getting that fixed and it soon became evident that the gearbox needed to be rebuilt. SA Warranties aren't interested in paying for a rebuild and I'm not throwing good money after bad (in this case we're talking about £1000). I've driven the past 20,000 km with a very rough gearbox. It's fine once I'm up to speed, but it doesn't change up or down when it should.

Other things that have gone wrong are the driver's door lock central locking unit that broke, the right rear door central locking unit that broke and the bulb behind the clock that went. The gearbox ECU sometimes loses comms with the box and the "M" and "S" lights start flicking. Every once in a while the engine ECU throws a wobbly, doesn't sync the injection pump and the truck won't start.

Then there's the big problem. The head's cracked and the engine needs new rings. It puff's black smoke when the engine's under load and uses oil at the rate of "one pint one tank"

The truck started losing coolant. I couldn't find any leaks but I still had to top up the coolant every couple of days. Eventually the radiator top hose decided that it was time to blow. Which it did spectacularly at 11:30pm on a Saturday. For those of you living in South Africa, it happened at the Rigel Ave intersection with the N1 - the car jacking capital of Gauteng :eek:

I ended up driving the car two km home with steam pouring from the bonnet and the temperature gauge about as high as it could go. Once I was home, I parked it on the lawn, sprayed the bonnet with a hose pipe until it was cool to the touch, popped the hood and let it cool down overnight. The replacement pipe was £32 - not bad considering...

Shortly after that, the radiator hose going to the diesel cooler split. This time in the middle of the Karoo. I ended up driving the car from Victoria West to Cape Town by keeping the revs under 2000 and filling the expansion tank every couple of km's. It took me two days to do the 600km.

Since replacing that hose, the heater matrix has started leaking water. I now have steam on the inside of the windscreen. The wise men of this forum agree with Independent 4x4 that the head's cracked. It seems this is a common TD5 problem.

This truck - at 200,000km - is in a much worse condition than any TDi I've owned with similar mileage. We used to recon the 200TDi every 400,000km. My one driver once drove a 300TDi 200km with the alternator light glowing (belt tensioner broke), but never had I had as much hassle and drama with a Land Rover as I've had with this one.

I'm currently slowly stripping the GPS, Blue-tooth kit and other accessories from the vehicle. Once I've done that I'll take it to the auctions and get what I can for it, then take that money and buy myself a 300TDi Disco, fit an ARB (or similar) front bumper, a heavy duty back bumper and a TD5 back light upgrade kit.

One last thing I'd like to touch on is the terrible service I received from Pretoria Land Rover. Certain forum members (who's names we will not mention) get given free parts when they go there. I, one the other hand, can say nothing good about them. SA Warranties require that the truck be serviced by a dealer every 5,000 km (or else the warranty lapses). Pretoria Land Rover would charge me between £150 and £175 to change the engine oil and filters. During one service they stole the Fuel Burning Heater. After another service, my truck came back minus it's Dixon Bate tow hitch. Unfortunately for them I'd learned from their previous theft and had the security guard list it when he documented the vehicle condition prior to them accepting the vehicle. Despite this, I still had no end of aggro getting them to replace the tow hitch. My house in Pretoria is close to both Land Rover Pretoria and Land Rover Centurion. LR Centurion go out of their way to help. LR Pretoria are a bunch of cowboys.

[Henk Coetzee]

13 months down the line and mine is a true tale of woe.

Indeed it is. I think I understand why you were reluctant to take that Disco to Lesotho.

One last thing I'd like to touch on is the terrible service I received from Pretoria Land Rover. Certain forum members (who's names we will not mention) get given free parts when they go there. I, one the other hand, can say nothing good about them.

I occasionally go in there for things like sump drain plug washers and the like, when I have to be nearby anyway. In truth though, these are the same people who wanted more than R6k for a 300Tdi vacuum pump and who, on asking me for my VIN number after a pump attendant in Lady Grey made off with my fuel filler cap and I needed a new one while everyone else was still on December holidays, made the sucking air through the teeth noise and said "Oh, that's a very old model".

I can say three good things about them - an oil filler cap seal and two sump plug washers:D.

[uk_vette]

;) But if its more reliable in the first place then why worry about it breaking down.

Thats why the third world lives for Toyota, even the new Land Cruiser with its computers is the logical choice for overlanders, even though I chose a Disco TD5 to travel around the world the toyota was the logical but the romantic in me went for the Land Rover.

;)
,,
,
Mmm,

I have the 2005 Land Cruiser 3.0 liter D4D
I was also worried about the "electronics" espessially on the long rugged off road tracks, i was worried that it would just shake itself to pieces.
Also, what if i get too much water in and around the important bits.

I was recently told that Toyota can fit 2 off small relays, which can be switch operated.
These 2 relays will switch out, 90 % of the electronics.
100 times better than "limp mode" but obviously not going to get the same performance or fuel consuption.
But at least you would be mobile until repairs or re-programming could be don.
then simply switch the relays back off again.
graham

[uk_vette]

,,
,
Mmm,

I have the 2005 Land Cruiser 3.0 liter D4D
I was also worried about the "electronics" espessially on the long rugged off road tracks, i was worried that it would just shake itself to pieces.
Also, what if i get too much water in and around the important bits.

I was recently told that Toyota can fit 2 off small relays, which can be switch operated.
These 2 relays will switch out, 90 % of the electronics.
100 times better than "limp mode" but obviously not going to get the same performance or fuel consuption.
But at least you would be mobile until repairs or re-programming could be don.
then simply switch the relays back off again.
graham,
,
,
,
Forgot to mention this LC is 30 months old, and has 370000km on the clock, with full Toyota history.