TD5 Running on Heating Oil

[Pops]

Guys,

Does anyone here use domestic heating oil (kerosene 28) in their engines? At 30p a litre it certainly looks tempting!

Steve.

[BigJim]

Guys,

Does anyone here use domestic heating oil (kerosene 28) in their engines? At 30p a litre it certainly looks tempting!

Steve.
can you afford to buy a new TD5 (vehicle, not just the engine) when C&E have taken yours away?

Won't be cheap then!

[Hubber]

Guys,

Does anyone here use domestic heating oil (kerosene 28) in their engines? At 30p a litre it certainly looks tempting!

Steve.

You would really need to be off your head to take that risk:eek: :eek:

[jkelly]

In theory it should be OK - less problematic than running on waste chip fat or some other cooking oil / bio-fuel.

My understanding is that there are 2 prime considerations:
1. Getting the fuel through the injector system
2. Fuel syetm Lubrication

No 1 above is problematic (especially in colder climates) as the viscosity of cooking oil is increased.
No 2 above - again, a problem with cooking oils. Does heating oil have any cleansing and lubricating qualities in it? I guess it must have - my fathers central heating boiler has been using it for nearly 30 years!!!

Give it a try and then let us all know! I certainly can't afford to be the first one!

[BigJim]

Does heating oil have any cleansing and lubricating qualities in it? I guess it must have - my fathers central heating boiler has been using it for nearly 30 years!!!

!

It is ulikely that the boiler has a pump that runs to the fine tolerances of an injector pump, or produces anything like the same pressures. It is those qualities that demand the oil being used to have good cleansing and lubricating properties.

[Pops]

Sounds like a no then!

Steve.

[kevinrbeech]

I've been told by several sources one a supplier of heating oil/agricultural oil (red diesel) and the other a chip fryer oil supplier, that red diesel is exactly the same as fuel diesel bought at the pumps, but with a red dye in it.

As said above the problem comes when the tank is dipped, and, the red dye apparently colours the inside of the tailpipe.

Pressure jet oil burners work on pressures of between 10 - 16 bar, they require a very precise spray pattern from a very technical nozzel, I know I work on them.

We have deliveries of up to 16,000 litres at a time and I've never taken the risk of putting it in my Discovery.

[JimGNR]

Heating oil or Kerosene is white like regular road diesel, I know people who run tractors, mowers etc and even a Transit on heating oil, it is slightly thicker than diesel and seems to make the engines smoke when cold.

Red diesel is the same as road diesel but with a pink dye in it, this dye is supposed to mark the tank and fuel lines but not the exhaust, I have never seen a tractor with a pink exhaust!!

You can now buy a blue dye to dye your red or white diesel blue.;)

[Mark B]

I've been told by several sources one a supplier of heating oil/agricultural oil (red diesel) and the other a chip fryer oil supplier, that red diesel is exactly the same as fuel diesel bought at the pumps, but with a red dye in it.

As said above the problem comes when the tank is dipped, and, the red dye apparently colours the inside of the tailpipe.

Pressure jet oil burners work on pressures of between 10 - 16 bar, they require a very precise spray pattern from a very technical nozzel, I know I work on them.

We have deliveries of up to 16,000 litres at a time and I've never taken the risk of putting it in my Discovery.

red diesel also has a higher water content, hense water traps on filters get filled very quickly, if you have a vehicle under warrenty the dealer will void the warrenty on the use of red.

[bilge rat]

run me boat on heating oil, it smokes well when the weather is cold, its an old lister so used to running on stuff like that, wouldnt dream of putting it in me disco though. lubrication wise, wouldnt do the pump any good in my eyes. alan......

[RRFool]

According to C&E the sulphur content is lower in Road Diesel.

I'd imagine that it wouldn't be pleasant having to walk home on a cold winters night either, after:

a) You lost the Fuel Pump :(
b) The nice Gentlemen in C&E dipped and seized your motor :eek:


In 2002-2003, almost 4,000 vehicles were seized in the UK - of 29,000 challenged - Can't find any newer figures than that.

Either way, i'd prob. think that it's not worth the savings.

[RRFool]

Spotted another small problem - according to C&E - if you buy more than 20L of red diesel now, you have to give Name, address etc -

more info here:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD_010819&propertyType=document

Thy recon that in 2000, some 8% of diesel on the roads was non road tax paid, and have reduced that down to 4% by 2005.

Before undertaking it - consider some of the fines (on top of the Vehicles being seized) mentioned here:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_025474&propertyType=document

[BigJim]

run me boat on heating oil, it smokes well when the weather is cold, its an old lister so used to running on stuff like that, wouldnt dream of putting it in me disco though. lubrication wise, wouldnt do the pump any good in my eyes. alan......

AFAIK It is perfectly legal to run your boat on red diesel.

[nwdisco]

As far as i can make out there are theoretically 2 issues here:

Tax evasion - illegal
Tax avoidance - legal

Running on central heating oil, red diesel or any other 'controlled oil' is a fair cop for tax 'evasion'

However...how does the law stand on putting 'non controlled oils' in your tank?

If you go to Tesco and load up with 90 litres of Mazola are you doing anthing illegal in putting this in your fuel tank? The fact that your Disco may not run is another issue. Similarily if you 'modified' your Disco to run on water ( :D ) would you be illegally 'evading' tax or legally 'avoiding' tax.

In the latter case, they would probably introduce a tax for 'fuel grade' water!!! :confused:

[bilge rat]

AFAIK It is perfectly legal to run your boat on red diesel.
it is at the moment but was talk about making it illegal, how they would enforce it who knows. the other prob means people would have two tanks one for heating and one for the engine. what a farce. alan.....

[Newsreader]

If you go to Tesco and load up with 90 litres of Mazola are you doing anthing illegal in putting this in your fuel tank?
Yes because you are using it as road fuel and therefore not paying the correct road fuel duty on it

[nwdisco]

Yes because you are using it as road fuel and therefore not paying the correct road fuel duty on it

So the water powered Disco will be a long way off then :D :D

I can see the government investing millions in that one....clean air, no tax !

[Newsreader]

I can see the government investing millions in that one....clean air, no tax !
:LAA:

[TEMPL4R]

it is at the moment but was talk about making it illegal, how they would enforce it who knows. .....
In talking to some of the people in the marina, they were on about Liesure Craft not being able to use red Diesel, only Fishing and other Trade Vessels.

Not sure if it's correct, but as the Boss has his Boat there, he will let me know, as I service it for him.

Chris

[BigJim]

In talking to some of the people in the marina, they were on about Liesure Craft not being able to use red Diesel, only Fishing and other Trade Vessels.

Not sure if it's correct, but as the Boss has his Boat there, he will let me know, as I service it for him.

Chris

The argument against having to use white diesel is that there are not enough places where boats can get it, and those that sell red will not get extra facilities to sell white cos it won't be economic.
So it is a safety factor, too far between refuelling points so boats will run out of fuel, endangering life.
So far the argument has been won and red is still legal AFAIK.

[RRFool]

:D As far as i can make out there are theoretically 2 issues here:

Tax evasion - illegal
Tax avoidance - legal

Running on central heating oil, red diesel or any other 'controlled oil' is a fair cop for tax 'evasion'

However...how does the law stand on putting 'non controlled oils' in your tank?

If you go to Tesco and load up with 90 litres of Mazola are you doing anthing illegal in putting this in your fuel tank? The fact that your Disco may not run is another issue. Similarily if you 'modified' your Disco to run on water ( :D ) would you be illegally 'evading' tax or legally 'avoiding' tax.

In the latter case, they would probably introduce a tax for 'fuel grade' water!!! :confused:


Got me searching & Found this (From Veg Oil Motoring 2005:

It is Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and not the Police who draw exception to people using vegetable oil as a fuel. However, as long as a fuel duty of 27.1p/litre is paid then the driver is well with in the law. It is possible to make these duty payments directly to HM Revenue and Customs yourself. To do this simply phone the HM Revenue and Customs National Advice line on 0845 010 9000. They will send you a form called an EX 103 which you need to fill and send back to them. Once your application has been approved you need to send monthly declarations of how much veg oil you have used.
The duty that you pay on vegetable oil is the same as that on high grade bio diesel and is tagged at 20p less than that of the ultra-low sulphur diesel which is 47.1p/litre.

The chaps over at C&E Say that:

Any liquid that is not hydrocarbon oil, biodiesel, bioblend, bioethanol or bioethanol blend but is used in place of mineral oil to fuel any engine, motor or other machinery is classed as a fuel substitute. Please see section 3.1.1 for further details. This includes:

any liquid used as a fuel in place of mineral oil;
any liquid which is used as an additive or extender to a mineral oil; or
any liquid which is used as an additive or extender in a fuel substitute.So I guess they could prob.do you for the water powered Disco as well :D

Charges etc. from C&E are here:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P94_6187

[fergie2035]

As far as I know heating oil, (also known as 28 second gas oil) is less viscous than diesel and doesn't lubricate as well. I used it in my petrol paraffin tractor which is supposed to run on tractor vapourising oil but was told that it would reduce the upper cylinder lubrication and that I should make up a mix that includes some diesel or 2 stoke oil. Red diesel is exactly the same stuff as white diesel - all the mythical differences are rumours put about by bosses trying to discourage workers from nicking the stuff. Why would a £80k tractor engine be happy running on diesel that is full of water or is substandard in some way? Red might have water or dirt in it due to poor storage but it doesn't get put in at the refinery. Apart from contaminants from dirty drums or tanks, the only way red causes engine damage is when you get caught with it and the vehicle gets crushed - as some members on here could testify. Heating oil is quite likely to cause engine damage I'd say, at least in the long term.

[PapaLazarou]

Just to add my bit, some hauliers I know of over here in Northern Ireland have a "flexible" approach to sourcing their fuel - ranging from those that run only pure deisel, to those that use magic concoctions involving vegetable oil, heating oil, "filtered" red deisel, etc. In my experience, the vehicles that give the most problems are those that are trying to cut their fuel costs by running this crap!

[kevthegerbil]

Guys,

Does anyone here use domestic heating oil (kerosene 28) in their engines? At 30p a litre it certainly looks tempting!

Steve.:rolleyes:
You can use this but you must use some oil in the mix heating oil is no so oily as deisel you also get a louder knock from the engine when using it

[alex]

As far as I know heating oil, (also known as 28 second gas oil) is less viscous than diesel and doesn't lubricate as well. I used it in my petrol paraffin tractor which is supposed to run on tractor vapourising oil but was told that it would reduce the upper cylinder lubrication and that I should make up a mix that includes some diesel or 2 stoke oil. Red diesel is exactly the same stuff as white diesel - all the mythical differences are rumours put about by bosses trying to discourage workers from nicking the stuff. Why would a £80k tractor engine be happy running on diesel that is full of water or is substandard in some way? Red might have water or dirt in it due to poor storage but it doesn't get put in at the refinery. Apart from contaminants from dirty drums or tanks, the only way red causes engine damage is when you get caught with it and the vehicle gets crushed - as some members on here could testify. Heating oil is quite likely to cause engine damage I'd say, at least in the long term.

Exactly.......... Veg oil has a higher duty than Biodiesel.....about 45p verses 27p. Your tank can be dipped anywhere by C&E. Car boot sales are popular as are road blocks. It`s basically like driving without a tax disc looking over your shoulder everywhere you go. I think with the boat thing they are going to increase the duty with red. You can run about on the road with red diesel if you want as long as you have receipts and proof that you have paid the FULL amount of road duty on it.
I think on red the reduced duty is about 23p and full duty would be about 60p. Stay safe and legal mate.
Alex