td5 start up problems

[PORK_PIE]

hi guys,
just wondering if anyone on here has come across this before?
my 02'td5 disco has been struggling to start, turns over, tries to fire, but just sort of splutters,eventually, after three or four attempts,it will fire up, it then runs no problem, untill the next time:( its got 70,000mls 0n the clock but had a brand new engine 10,000mls ago
i thought it sounded like air in the system, so put it into our local non-franchised garage, usually they can pick up something like this no problem however this time they had it all day put it on diagnostics and came up with a big fat zero.(it only did it once for them, so they do know the fault is like but as it is intermittent it is difficult to pinpoint) they are pointing me towards a new fuel pump but are not sure if that is the cure,they were going to try and rig something up to test the fuel pressure after the pump because apparently there is no way of monitoring it normally but ran out of time today, i need it tommorrow so they have said to just "let it develop" so i was wondering if anyone on here has any ideas?thoughts on the matter.

i'm off to pick it up now, look forward to any thoughts that anyone might have, thanks in advance.

[lynalldiscovery]

Mine did the same and it was the in tank pump giving up the ghost.
Turn on ign and stick your head down by the fuel filter and listen there should be a smooth humming noise for about 10 secs or so.
If rough sounding ,pump could be on its way out, my next pump then made same noise 10k later and was due to in tank pump filter being blocked.
There is a crude filter on the bottom of the pump then a finer one inside the swirl chamber.
Thats assuming its a TD5!


Lynall

[PORK_PIE]

thanks lynall,
that sounds mighty like it, you dont even have to get down to hear the pump, you can hear it from the drivers seat, sounds a bit like it is just churning , with air in it, trying to prime but not quite getting there. thanks for the reply, confirms what the garage were saying then, sounds pricey:eek:

[Jon v8]

Dont think its the pump as it would tend to play up whilst running - but saying that I would still check fuel pressure.I made up a tee piece with the correct fitttings and a long enough hose to tape the gauge onto the door mirror so I can watch the pressure while driving.It should stay at 4 bar while the engine is running.
I think its more likely that one of the lower injector washers is leaking,the fuel drains into the cylinder and then there is air in the fuel rail - which TD5's dont like.Or is the engine oil level rising? A leaky injector upper o ring will have the same effect.
When you go to start it from cold try switching the ignition on then floor the throttle at least 5 times.This puts the fuel pump into a "prime mode" and will continue to run the pump on and off for ages.( This is for priming the system after a filter change ) Let this go on for a couple of mins then try to start it.If it fires up straight away then air is the problem.Finding where its coming from is the next step !

[PORK_PIE]

thanks jon,
there definately does not seem to be any problems once i'm running, goes as sweet as the proverbial, the oil level does not seem to be rising significantly either,so that goes back to the lower injector washer? when you say fuel rail does that mean that the injectors are not fed individually but from a resevoir under pressure (the fuel rail) and they themselves control the injection timing, rather than the injection pump? i do not really understand these modern systems very well!.
would that account for the racket the pump is making when trying to prime, because it is pumping fuel into the cylinder? the noise does not stop untill you switch off the ignition(or you turn over the engine)and succesfully start or not. thanks again for your advice.

p.s. will try the priming thing in the morning.

[Jon v8]

If the pump is making a racket then you probably have air,it should start off as a high whine and lower a little as the pressure reg starts to work - then stay constant.If its up and down like a weston donkey then there is air present.The engine ECU controls the point and duration of injection,the diesel is pumped along an internal passage inside the cyl head casting itself for each EUI to use.

[PORK_PIE]

jon,
good description, a weston donkey, yep that about sums it up it sounds like a central heating pump when it needs bleeding, almost a gurgle, i reckon tho' that if they could not find it at the garage, i have little or no chance.so do you not think that the pump is at fault? i have just remembered that its got an extended warranty taken out at the dealers when the landy one expired, will have to look at whether i am covered on that? will let you all know.

[PORK_PIE]

hi guy's,especially jon v8,
jon, i did the flooring the throttle thing, tried a couple of times and it did not make a difference, however on re-reading your post i thought that i might not be leaving it priming for long enough, so this morning as soon as i got up i turned on the ignition and left it to prime for a good 20 mins, hey presto when i came back to it there was no noise from the pump and it started first turn:) so, it looks like air, how difficult is this to actually find, and what could be causing it? would i be sensible to give it to the dealer to sort? help!! thanks for your assistance so far in this matter.

[PORK_PIE]

hello,
another update, i filled it up to the brim yesterday lo and behold it started up first time this morning and again tonight when i left work? thing is, it was not empty it was only down to about a quarter full so it should not have been picking up muck or anything so whats going on? it's got me beat.:confused:

[PORK_PIE]

another update, any ideas appreciated,

well, i filled up and the problems stopped so i thought that i would run the fuel down untill it caused the start up prob again, so, i am now down to the fuel warning light being on and it has not flickered????? so the theory about the pickup pipe is not looking good, would a bad batch of fuel cause these symptoms? or has anyone any other theories....i have little enough hair as it is. heeeelp

[PORK_PIE]

hi all,

just filled up again and the fault is back, exactly the same, but with a full tank, could it be the fuel?????

[lynalldiscovery]

I still reckon you should remove the pump and have a look at the two screen filters.


Lynall

[Jon v8]

I still reckon you should remove the pump and have a look at the two screen filters.


LynallHe's right - have the pump unit out of the tank and see whats going on.

[PORK_PIE]

thanks for the replies lads,

i think you are right, another visit to the garage is in order, can you tell me if it's a big job to get at the pump, and would i be better waiting and running the tank down a bit? as i have just filled up, to the brim:(

[Jon v8]

Take up the rear end of the loadspace carpet,you will see a round panel - its under that.I would run the tank down a bit,if its been brimmed.
When you put it all back together,make sure all the push fit plastic fuel hoses are fully home or you may have a problem.(dont ask how I know:D )

[PORK_PIE]

cheers jon,

will let you all know how i get on in due course.

[lynalldiscovery]

Not as simple as that the load carpet is fixed down under the sidepanels and you have to remove the sidepanels to get the carpet up.

Sidepanels a toss to remove without marking them.

On the TDI its a doddle

Easiest way is to cut the carpet between the rear seat lock down plates as far forward as you can get if you look at the pic you can just see where i cut the carpet.

Once in you will see the fuel connections these are a push fit nip the coloured bits together with long nose pliers then pull the pipe out then undo the bloody big nut and you are in.

[PORK_PIE]

thanks for the photo's,

will let you know how i get on in due course, i am going to let the tank run down a bit before i try anything.

[PORK_PIE]

back again lads:)

quick update, put a couple of tankfulls through, no bother, tuesday took ages to start, same symptoms,air in fuel noise etc result is a new pump:eek: seems to be ok now (touch wood) the whole engine sounds quieter now, don't know if that is possible? or if it is just my imagination, you know the rough sort of td5 noise seems more mellow? only one prob the fuel gauge seems to be jumping about, going from full to empty and back again randomly, i know it is full cos i just filled it up yet it is showing full one minute then empty the next, then back to full. hope it settles/calibrates? itself cos im off camping tomorrow heading for bonnie jockland, ingliston truckfest, taking the wee guy for the weekend, wish me luck and see y'all next week. thanks again for all your advice.

[PORK_PIE]

hi all,

nuther update, garage replaced my fuel pump, ran ok for a while, then back to the same old problem:eek: garage took it back in, and found out from landrover that there was a problem with a check/non return valve in the filter head under the wheel arch, changed that and its been running now for over a week, seems to be ok, will keep my fingers crossed( andeverything else)

[Colin Davidson]

I have had very similar cold start problems with a 2003 TD5 Discovery, the fuel pump has been replaced as it was faulty, cold starting has improved but it can still take up to 30 secs before the engine fires up.
The glow plug warning light only remains lit for 2 - 3 secs when the ignition is first switched on, then after that, the warning light stays on for only 1 - 2 secs, surely not enough time for the glow plugs to warm up sufficiently??
I have access to the Autologic Diagnostic tool, but this has not really helped to work out how to increase the time the glow plugs are fed power. How long does your warning light stay on??
Has anyone any ideas how to solve this one??

[PORK_PIE]

hi colin,

my glow plugs really take milliseconds to warm up, my td5 starts on the first turn of the key (that is when my fuel problem is not rearing its ugly head) if it is taking 30 seconds to fire, it sounds more like the fault i was having, when you first turn on your ignition, to the first click, you should hear just a faint buzzing from the fuel pump,this should only last 30 seconds or so,untill it gets up to pressure and then stops, mine was making a right racket at the filter under the wheel arch, which was air in the system and that was causing my starting problem, the cure seems to have been the non return valve located in the filter head, which is under the rear wheel arch, i would look at that as the part is only about £10 and is not a big job to do.

[PORK_PIE]

hi all,

nuther update, garage replaced my fuel pump, ran ok for a while, then back to the same old problem:eek: garage took it back in, and found out from landrover that there was a problem with a check/non return valve in the filter head under the wheel arch, changed that and its been running now for over a week, seems to be ok, will keep my fingers crossed( andeverything else)

well, it was not the valve at fault, cos' it's back to normal:( so i have bitten the bullet and it's gone for a holiday to the main dealer, broke down on me virtually so i left it at the nearest main dealers and hitched home, its there untill i come back from holli's (10 days) so hopefully they might find something. not happy.

[discoif]

Hi PORK_PIE,

Have you got this problem already sorted ? I have 2004 DII Td5 and I have been suffering about same kind of problems.

[PORK_PIE]

Hi PORK_PIE,

Have you got this problem already sorted ? I have 2004 DII Td5 and I have been suffering about same kind of problems.


hi there,

had the disco back for a week now and it seems ok, the main dealer changed the whole filter head(the filter scews into this under the rear wheel arch) they recon that they have come across this before where it becomes porous,drawing air into the system,i myself dont see how air can get in but fuel cannot get out, but it has cured the fault, i will not say it's definately fixed yet, but i am keeping my fingers crossed.
they also changed the fuel pump, why,you might well ask, well, the last garage put a defender one in by mistake:eek:, which was why the fuel gauge would not work properly,so now i have to try and get a refund from the first garage for the pump that they wrongly fitted,which probably did not need doing in the first place.:rolleyes:

[PORK_PIE]

got my refund:D:D, the pump that they fitted had been wrongly boxed and there is very little difference in them to look at, just one of those things i suppose.
car is still starting ok but i am not counting my chickens yet. keeping everything crossed.

[graham]

Sounds like you've had a frustrating time hope its sorted now, keep us posted.

This could be put in the starting problem sticky later.

[PORK_PIE]

disco been running ok now for a month,had a tankfull of fuel through, so probs about 500+ miles, so it looks as if it was the filter head that was causing the fault after all. flew through it's mot today, still keeping everything crossed but it looks as though it might just be sorted.:)

[lakeland]

new to forum
my disco does not seem to have a standpipe attached, is this a problem + what is its purpose, thanksNot as simple as that the load carpet is fixed down under the sidepanels and you have to remove the sidepanels to get the carpet up.

Sidepanels a toss to remove without marking them.

On the TDI its a doddle

Easiest way is to cut the carpet between the rear seat lock down plates as far forward as you can get if you look at the pic you can just see where i cut the carpet.

Once in you will see the fuel connections these are a push fit nip the coloured bits together with long nose pliers then pull the pipe out then undo the bloody big nut and you are in.

[lynalldiscovery]

Lakeland thats the feed for the eberspacher block heater.


Lynall

[lakeland]

Thanks lynall, my discos fuel pump failed new one fitted but still made loud noise, garage told me takes a couple of days for air to purge out of system, wasnt happy so insisted pump should be changed,new pump still making noise no start up problems as yet and no visible leaks ie at fuel block connector. waiting for the day it wont start probably while the wifes driving knowing my luck. garage did mention possible injector washers but discos running and starting fine just noisy pump!

[graham]

Hi and welcome to the forum :)

Are you in the lake district Lakeland? just asking cos i used Lakeland LR

[lakeland]

hi graham, lived in hawkshead for 2+ yrs and bought 2 discos from lakeland torver. Now living in northern ireland. Currently own Discovery td5 gs auto.

[graham]

I always found them very helpful at Lakeland LR :)

[lakeland]

I still phone them now 3yrs after moving for advice never a problem. discos not starting as well as usual going to have copper washers and o rings on injectors replaced on thurs. by local independant, lakeland LR too far away now!. hope thats the end of the air.

[lakeland]

I still phone them now 3yrs after moving for advice never a problem. discos not starting as well as usual going to have copper washers and o rings on injectors replaced on thurs. by local independant, lakeland LR too far away now!. hope thats the end of the air.
Had o rings & washers replaced on injectors on tues. all seems well no air on priming & starting no problem;) hope this result is useful to anybody with similar problem.

[PORK_PIE]

Had o rings & washers replaced on injectors on tues. all seems well no air on priming & starting no problem;) hope this result is useful to anybody with similar problem.

hope that is you sorted:), if you don't mind me askin, how much did that set you back? it's just that if the filter head replacement had not worked on mine, this is what they were planning on doing next.

[lakeland]

hope that is you sorted:), if you don't mind me askin, how much did that set you back? it's just that if the filter head replacement had not worked on mine, this is what they were planning on doing next.
£118 all in, estimated about 4 hrs work.

[PORK_PIE]

£118 all in, estimated about 4 hrs work.

very reasonable, our local indi was going to be at least double that.

[Steve J]

hi all I'm going through this saga at the moment had the injectors replaced then the pump and today a second hand filter head was tried but still you have to prime her to get it to start even now after an hour or so. Would these injector seals have been replaced when the injectors were changed?
Any one got any other ideas.

[Steve J]

Had the Glow plugs replaced not injectors however yesterday had the Injector seals replaced and that solved the problem she also runs a lot smoother now.

Cheers

Steve

[lakeland]

happy days!

[PORK_PIE]

looks like everyone is happy now,been six months and about 3000 miles and mine is still running ok, so it would seem that it was the filter head that was at fault after all. hope its of help to someone.

[anjo]

I have a Disco TD5 year 2000 Auto and the vehicle just lost power then began to splutter before stalling it would not restart and after leaving it for a while would start again and then splutter. The garage change the fuel pump thinking it was a fuel issue,but again it just spluttered. In the end I had it recovered to my home where I fitted a new injector harness and engine harness this only takes about a morning to do and alot of swearing to remove connectors from inaccessable places. It now starts ok and has plenty of pulling ower now and is also alot quieter. It appears that the original engine harness had been rubbing in various places against the engine especially at the rear of the alternator where the harness splits to run to the opposite side of the engine. This exposes bare conductors where the insulation has worn and will cause intermittent faults plus also found that the engine harness had oil contamination which does not help either.:)

[PORK_PIE]

looks like everyone is happy now,been six months and about 3000 miles and mine is still running ok, so it would seem that it was the filter head that was at fault after all. hope its of help to someone.

should've kept my mouth shut, , almost a year without a hiccup, and it's doing it again, booked into the main dealer again next week, loking forward to the outcome, cant believe it's not a more common problem???

[cliffTD5]

I have recently had TD5 starting problems. Have you checked the injector loom connections on the engine and the ECU?

Mine was full of oil.

New loom fitted, clean oil from both connectors (have had to do it a few times at the ECU end as it takes it time migrating down the wiring.

Fingers crossed all ok now :)

[PORK_PIE]

I have recently had TD5 starting problems. Have you checked the injector loom connections on the engine and the ECU?

Mine was full of oil.

New loom fitted, clean oil from both connectors (have had to do it a few times at the ECU end as it takes it time migrating down the wiring.

Fingers crossed all ok now :)

going in on thursday, will let you know:(

[cliffTD5]

Good luck :)
Very easy checks.

Ours is knackered today due to a split ACE pipe. Always something :rolleyes:

[alfapat@dsl.pip]

Never mind the pump , have a look at the pump into the tank, its probably choked ie the filter in the tank.

[PORK_PIE]

Dont think its the pump as it would tend to play up whilst running - but saying that I would still check fuel pressure.I made up a tee piece with the correct fitttings and a long enough hose to tape the gauge onto the door mirror so I can watch the pressure while driving.It should stay at 4 bar while the engine is running.
I think its more likely that one of the lower injector washers is leaking,the fuel drains into the cylinder and then there is air in the fuel rail - which TD5's dont like.Or is the engine oil level rising? A leaky injector upper o ring will have the same effect.
When you go to start it from cold try switching the ignition on then floor the throttle at least 5 times.This puts the fuel pump into a "prime mode" and will continue to run the pump on and off for ages.( This is for priming the system after a filter change ) Let this go on for a couple of mins then try to start it.If it fires up straight away then air is the problem.Finding where its coming from is the next step !

well the car has been in for a week, and they have just phoned to say that they have tried and elliminated everything except the injector washers, and the only way to elliminate them is to change them? purely coincidence that the symptoms are exactly the same as the last time and that a filter head fixed it then( for almost a year without a hiccough) probably looking at quite a big bill as they reckon they cannot do it under their extended warranty:(, and as i also had big service done on it,which required a few extras, reckon i'm looking at the thick end of a grand:eek:

quick question for jonv8, if you come across this, and have time, do you think that the washers should go like this when the engine is not yet three years old and has barely done 20,000 miles?

[hughsurrey]

HAd the same problem on my 02 disco, the explanation from the main dealer was this:

The last thing the pump does when you switch off the engine is prime the system for the next start, which saves the pump having to push fuel up to the injectors. If there is an air leak anywhere in the system, or the non- return valve is goosed, the fuel will flow back to the tank and the car will take ages to start, as the pump effectively has to prime the system.

In my case the fault was a copper washer around th injector caused, I believe, by using REDEX which cleaned the carbon off the washer which had been keeping the seal.

Hope this helps

[d1scv]

Just started getting the same problem as you guys.
Lots of noise from pump/ many tries at starting.

But- what bugs me, if the pump is in any way in trouble, why does the motor run without a miss once started?

Looking like I may have to start with the pump or filter housing. Any clues as to the best prices?

[PORK_PIE]

HAd the same problem on my 02 disco, the explanation from the main dealer was this:

The last thing the pump does when you switch off the engine is prime the system for the next start, which saves the pump having to push fuel up to the injectors. If there is an air leak anywhere in the system, or the non- return valve is goosed, the fuel will flow back to the tank and the car will take ages to start, as the pump effectively has to prime the system.

In my case the fault was a copper washer around th injector caused, I believe, by using REDEX which cleaned the carbon off the washer which had been keeping the seal.

Hope this helps

have not heard from them today, so don'tyet know the results, have never used redex on the motor so don't know if that is applicable to mine? although i would like it sorted they gave me an '08 disco 3 as a loan car, makes mine seem like an old tractor, had it for a week now, nice just as a car but not very practical for me.

[jimboj]

hi same as mine. had poor starting in morning and when left for hours,was just starting to get unbearable and had upgraded ecu stage one fitted problem went. thought old ecu had a fault, 4 months later problems back and getting worse.new glow plugs,glow plug relay tested had new filter head the pressure reg thingy under wheel arch, had full fuel system pressure test, had new battery new starter motor, the redesigned fuel bit on the engine to,,new fuel pumps (although unconnected had two pattern part fuel pumps fault was not happening then , they both read wrong on guage so had genuine fitted and 3 weeks later fault started again.had injector loom off injector end, connected and tested and injectors not working when cold starting. garage had it all week now they fitted new crank sensor and waiting to see if starts in the morning, also larger current draw on meter when cracking compared to same year etc model at garage, hence starter motor change. awaiting tommorows start test, and pork pies next post!

[jimboj]

i read a post last month that had very similar faults, in the end, months later the chap cured it by removing the ecu and spraying switch cleaner on the connections and re plugging in. tried this also but to no avail. maybe it'll work for someone else thou......... p.s the re mapping is the best thing i ever done, goes like a petrol engine now, and i get 600 miles out of a tank of diesel driving it "nicely"

[jimboj]

just picked car up after having new crank sensor fitted last night, started first time this morning, but will be happier if it starts in morning as it only seems to do this fault when driven and left.( if its started and left for 3 days and not driven anywhere it'll start first time!)

[jimboj]

right tried to start it this afternoon again had to crank for about ten seconds so that illiminates crank sensor! think im gonna try the 5 pumps on pedal and let the pump prime like hell for ten minutes in the morning and go back to air insystem as suspect, maybe last fuel pump faulty???

[cliffTD5]

right tried to start it this afternoon again had to crank for about ten seconds so that illiminates crank sensor! think im gonna try the 5 pumps on pedal and let the pump prime like hell for ten minutes in the morning and go back to air insystem as suspect, maybe last fuel pump faulty???

Our problems sound very similar :confused: http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=131265

[jimboj]

no, mine runs fine once started unless left to cool for hours, going with the hot fuel cooling down sucking in air somewhere when it cools, pressure test if done when hot maybe missed leak if hotness expanded something and filled leak. however yesterday cleaned earths up near ecu, and gave harness and ecu good blast with wd40- all i had to hand, and this morning started after about 2seconds which is a massive improvement, gonna go with new injector washers and loom at the same time this week

[PORK_PIE]

the garage phoned on friday, said it will deffo be done for mon, injector washers poss, will let y'all know when i gtet it back, still, iv'e had the d3 for 10 days now and it's growing on me:o

[jimboj]

just been poking about round the fuel filter, found the bottom bit, where the wires connect werent tight!!!! problem did get worse when they changed this! maybe small leak on injector washers and this just adds to it!!!!!!!!! pump much quieter now on priming too!

[jimboj]

cant wait any longer for pork pies results! CAR DROPPED OFF TO HAVE INJECTOR WASHERS DONE, HOPEFULLY THATS GONNA SORT IT!

[PORK_PIE]

dealer has done my injector washers, reckons it is sorted:rolleyes: picking it up in the morning, methinks i will be a few pounds lighter, will let you know, fingers crossed.

[PORK_PIE]

dealer has done my injector washers, reckons it is sorted:rolleyes: picking it up in the morning, methinks i will be a few pounds lighter, will let you know, fingers crossed.

as posted in another thread,

it's back and seems ok, not as much as i thought either, 3hrs@ £75=£225,
1 washer @ 77p, 4 x screws @ 37p (screws@ 37p) ea, gasket @ £20 (gasket@£20) tot £247,
result? i dunno, only time will tell.

[jimboj]

mines back too sorted. back to how it was originally,all good, ended up paying for new fuel block on engine due to it leaking diesel, was changed about 6 weeks ago, only just got round to charing for it, labour for doing that and washers, £150. pays not to use a main dealer!!!!!, all the trial and error with new crank sensor, new starter motor, swapping ecus no charge. thanks the wonderful people at mansfield 4x4 manningtree

[cliffTD5]

as posted in another thread,

it's back and seems ok, not as much as i thought either, 3hrs@ £75=£225,
1 washer @ 77p, 4 x screws @ 37p ea, gasket @ £20 tot £247,
result? i dunno, only time will tell.

1 Washer ?????
4 Screws??????

Should be 5 washers and 5 o rings.

Did they only do one?????

Did they not suggest an oil change as I would have thought there was diesel in it?

[cliffTD5]

mines back too sorted. back to how it was originally,all good, ended up paying for new fuel block on engine due to it leaking diesel, was changed about 6 weeks ago, only just got round to charing for it, labour for doing that and washers, £150. pays not to use a main dealer!!!!!, all the trial and error with new crank sensor, new starter motor, swapping ecus no charge. thanks the wonderful people at mansfield 4x4 manningtree

Excellent result, did they not suggest changing the oil though. Mine was changed as there was diesel in it

[PORK_PIE]

1 Washer ?????
4 Screws??????

Should be 5 washers and 5 o rings.

Did they only do one?????

Did they not suggest an oil change as I would have thought there was diesel in it?

cliff,

just had another look at the bill, 5x o ring @ £2.58, 5x washer-seal @ £1.23, they were on another part of the bill, for my service, so i dont know what the other things were, oh and as i had it serviced as well (not included in the price) so they will have done the oil then.

[cliffTD5]

cliff,

just had another look at the bill, 5x o ring @ £2.58, 5x washer-seal @ £1.23, they were on another part of the bill, for my service, so i dont know what the other things were, oh and as i had it serviced as well (not included in the price) so they will have done the oil then.

;)

The other ones were probably the sump plug and washer then? ;)