'96 Disco not starting

[rickead2000]

Hi,

I've got a '96 300 tdi Disco that has a strange problem.

In the mornings, it will start fine.

However, once the engine is hot and I try to restart it shortly after switching off, quite often I will turn the key to Start and nothing will happen.

Continually repeating this and the engine will eventually start - sometimes after 30 seconds sometimes after 20 minutes.

When turning the ignition, I can hear a click coming from somewhere around the radio and then when turning to start I hear a click coming from somewhere around the glovebox?

I have tried locking/unlocking the car with the fob incase it was the immobiliser, but this doesnt really seem to have any effect.

I am not sure what is causing this. Someone suggested its a broken Spider? But I have no idea where/what this is and how to confirm this is at fault.

Can anybody point me in the right direction?

I don't think it is the battery because as soon as the starter decides to turn, the engine starts immediately. Its either all or nothing!

[Madoobri]

Someone suggested its a broken Spider? But I have no idea where/what this is and how to confirm this is at fault.

Can anybody point me in the right direction?



Have a look here (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=86)... if the spider is indeed the problem :Idunno:

[BrianH]

The symptoms you describe are identical to those previously experienced with my own 300tdi. I changed the starter motor on mine thinking it was that, but I later traced the problem to a sticky relay. The relay is located in the driver's side footwell.

I didn't bother to change mine as it happens. I wired in a push button directly to the starter motor's solenoid (which is what the sticky relay powers). Now whenever the fault happens I just press my start button instead. I'm a bit reluctant to use my start button all of the time because I should really have worked out the currents involved and perhaps used the switch in conjunction with a relay. I don't want the contacts on my switch burning out so I just use it in emergencies when the starter motor's relay sticks. In fairness, I should probably just change the relay and be done with it!!!

Brian

[BrianH]

Oh by the way, don't be fooled into thinking that the relay must be good because you hear a click when you turn the ignition. That just means that A relay is clicking, not that THE relay is clicking :D

Brian

[Les Henson]

The alarm spider controls starter motor and fuel cut-off switch, but not necessarily both at the same time if it's faulty. Land Rover supply a bypass plug for the control unit which you just plug into the part of the wiring that usually plugs into the spider unit. I don't know the part number, but the thing is only about a fiver.

[5paul5]

Thinking it could be the relay as Brian suggests [ thanks for that] However is there more than one relay in the drivers footwell and if so which one would it be ?

[dinotd5]

yes their is normally three in behind the pannel to the right of the throttle pedal
but i dont no which is which
but spider is the normal issue
if its turning over run a live from battery to stop on fuel pump
if it starts just run a fused link into ingintion feed to the stop switch

[BrianH]

It's the first relay of the three (the one closest to the driver's door).

The problem here is that because the fault is so intermittent, it's difficult to check the relay for any fault. It could be that it's working fine when you test it, but then shows a symptom later on. I found that mine played up more often on hot days, or just after a long drive for example. For this reason, the fault caught me out at a petrol station more than once :(

So you have two options. You can replace the relay and see if the fault goes away permanently, or you can wire in a bypass button (which is what I did). To wire in a bypass button, you need a push button with a decent current rating. You'll need to wire a fused live feed to one side of the switch, then wire the other side of the switch to the solenoid connection on the starter motor, which is a small spade terminal fitting. With your push-button wired in, you should find that if you press the button she'll turn over. Further more, if you put the ignition on (turn the key until the glow plug lamp illuminates) and then press the button, she should start.

How does this help you with your problem? Well, when the fault next occurs, you can use the push button and see what happens. If she'll start with your push button but not by turning the key, then your relay is definitely to blame.

I did this mod on mine, but never bothered replacing the relay - I just use the push button all the time now instead!

Brian

[bananahead]

This might help. Also if you can hear it you can feel it. Put your hand on it to confirm the one which is clicking.
Im breaking a disco if you get stuck finding one i can ge you one.


And what a crap photo that is! I think it is behind the trim on the side of the car not just accessed by openging the panel to see fuses etc...

[BrianH]

@bananahead:

Yes you're absolutely right, it is indeed behind the trim. You can't get at it from the fusebox panel.

There are three relays behind the trim, and it's the one nearest the door. But, if you pull the plastic cap off it, you'll actually be able to see it "clicking". Or rather, you'll see the mechanical action of it. However, do not be fooled - a relay that clicks is not necessarily a relay with a good electrical connection. Mine still "clicked" (i.e. it had good mechanical action) even when it wasn't working.

Brian

[bananahead]

Brian im not doubting you are right, but i am confused as in the photo it looks like its the middle one?

[BrianH]

@bananahead,

I just checked your pictures and yeah... I'd agree it definitely looks like it's pointing to the middle relay. In fact, I don't see that it could possibly mean to point at any other relay than the middle one in that picture.

Okay. So maybe I am wrong, then. I can check quite easily actually but it'll need to be tomorrow after work (when it's light). Alternatively, it would be very easy for dinotd5 to check himself using the touch method (as you suggested) or by pulling the caps off and having a look at which one clicks.

Brian

[bananahead]

The reason i suggested touching it by the way was not to prove it works, but just as confirmation which one he is dealing with, as you say if it clicks it does not prove it works. It may be that some are not in the middle... suppose anything is possible with landrovers. I might check which one mine is actually just out of curiousity and report back.. The picture is from that RAVE cd. I'm not trying to just say you are wrong and argue and annoy you its just i noticed it pointed to middle one, but you obviously have first hand experience with it, i dont.

[BrianH]

No no, not at all. No annoyance whatsoever. I am happy to be wrong here, no biggie! In fact, if I am wrong, then lucky you pointed it out! :)

I do have first hand experience but we're talking a long time ago now. Maybe three years or more. So there's definitely scope for confusing which of the relays it actually was. Still, I'll have a check on mine tomorrow now because... like you... I need to satisfy my own curiosity!

Brian

[BrianH]

Hmmm. I'm just thinking here....

I wonder if it's possible that I mixed the relays up on mine? In order to find out which one it was I used the touch method that you described. But not before pulling them all off their brackets! Once I'd found my culprit I removed the cap to confirm that it was definitely the one being actioned when I turned the key.

I wonder if it's possible to put them back on the hooks in the wrong order? That would explain why I think it's the relay closest to the door... :o

So. I think the moral of this story is... best to check first using the methods described, before you replace any of the relays. In case some idiot like me has gone before you and mixed them up!!!

Brian

[bananahead]

Well the one nearest door seems to be front wiper relay... so i guess you could swap them two over and see if the front wipers sometimes dont work... or maybe not!!! In the photo the one nearest door looks like is a different colour so i doubt you got it wrong..

[dizzyv8]

Hi mate £1 to a penny it will be the spider this is what mine did so i put in the bypass £10 from Lr 2 hours later and no more problems i have since done 5 or 6 others and got the fit down to 35 Min's. check that there is a spider fitted by pulling out the radio and looking underneath the metal Carrier if you see a metal box with a plastic box inside and some black wires coming out you have a spider but check well because if the bypass has been fitted properly an untrained eye may not spot the difference. Good Luck

[BrianH]

Well the one nearest door seems to be front wiper relay... so i guess you could swap them two over and see if the front wipers sometimes dont work... or maybe not!!!

No, I don't mean literally swap the relays - I just mean lift all of them off their hooks, so that they're dangling by their wiring looms, but then put them back on the hooks in the wrong places. If there's enough slack in the looms it could be possible.

@dizzyv8

Yep it could indeed be the Spider. You can get all manner of symptoms with that thing. However, if she's intermittently failing to turnover then it could also be the relay itself. The relay is the easiest to check.

Although, putting in a bypass button would solve both those problems.

Brian