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Thread: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

  1. #1
    Mechanic BIG_JIMMY's Avatar
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    Default Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    I have spotted that my 1995 90 300 TDi is loosing hydraulic fluid from the clutch. I haven't been underneath yet to find out where from, but I was just looking at the Paddocks list of spares, re-furb kits for both cylinders and thought that as a full pair of new cylinders cost so little (in relative terms) that I might as well change both of them for new components rather than going to the b-lls ache of stripping down and rebuilding.

    What do you think.

    Also, where can the gearbox number be found ?
    Last edited by BIG_JIMMY; 2nd Aug 2009 at 07:52. Reason: spelling

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    Apprentice 02jcole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    In my opinion the rebuild kits are a waste of your money, unless the bore of the cylinder is in excellent un-worn condition, otherwise it will just start leaking again.

    I would also strongly suggest purchasing only genuine or OEM master/slave cylinders as in my experience the cheap copies don't last.

    These links may help:

    http://www.mailorder4x4.com/acatalog...Cylinders.html

    http://www.mailorder4x4.com/acatalog...Cylinders.html



    As for the gearbox serial number, on an R380 I though it was stamped on the side, close to the oil filler plug, but cannot be 100% sure.

    James
    1997 300tdi Defender 90 truck Cab- Tuned by IRB Developments-"for performance you don't need to shout about"


  3. #3

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    just change the slave cylinder , its most likely only that thats leaking .

    there is only one piston seal in the slave cyl , easy to rebuild if you can hone out the bore of the cylinder, but to be honest a new complete slave cyl is not much money .

    the slaves last a long time on the 300tdi with r380 because the exhaust is on the other side of the bellhousing , whereas with the older LT77 it was on same side and used to suffer from getting a bit of heat into it at times .

    just make sure you buy the slave cyl for use with an R380 gearbox and remember there is a spacer plate that is fitted between the slave and gearbox faces , or at least there is on my defender .

    R380 box number is on a flat face which is on the drivers side bottom front of gearbox , just under the filler plug hole , on the cast iron part of the main gearbox .

    you will probably have to wire brush and emery cloth over the face in order to reveal the number , but also you may wipe water over it in an attempt to be able to see the number because its etched on and not that clearly visible at times .

    sometimes you need to brush it off and go over it with some emery cloth , then let it dry , then just wipe damp finger over it and look at the number using a torch .

    the number you will be looking for is the first 3 digits , ie 56A and the last letter , ie J .

    the transfer box number is stamped more clearly , on rear passenger side at back, to left and above filler hole, left side next to handbrake drum , also transfer box ratio sticker is there usually too

    when you pull the slave cylinder out do it gently and then grip the rod and pull the slave cyl away from the rod, leaving the rod sticking in/out the gearbox hole .
    sometimes the clutch rod will be gripped by the rubber on end of slave cyl and not just slip out , but the rod is fixed to the pivot arm inside the gearbox by a plastic clip and needs to stay on the pivot arm and held down by the clip .
    ie the slave cyl comes out on its own and the rod stays just sticking out the hole in the bellhousing .

    when you refit slave cyl you just slip the end of rod into end of slave cyl and then push the slave back into hole and the rod will go up inside the slave cyl .

    i think when the slave cyl comes almost to the face of gearbox that it will be under a little tension , ie you wont push it flat against faces , the bolts will pull it in fully .

    put it with the BLEED nipple facing top , so air comes out .

    when bleeding it you can slacken the master cylinder pipe fitting , and then youll need a clean oil can [pump type] and bit of plastic pipe , then "back bleed" the fluid up from the slave bleed nipple until fluid comes out the master cylinder union , then tighten master cyl union and bleed nipple on slave you should have some pedal action .
    you can also then bleed it from the slave cyl bleed nipple if you want to .

    if you fit a new master cyl and cant get fluid pressure up at first, then put finger over the outlet port and press clutch pedal a few times, and release finger after couple pumps in succession and it should then start to pump the fluid .

    when doing master cyl youll need to check/set the pedal slack up using the 2x 13mm nuts on the threaded rod in the pedal box , and possibly set the height of pedal if it becomes different after fitment of new master cyl , easy job but can be better done if you split end of a 13mm ring spanner or two so you have more flexability to get onto the nuts .
    .

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    Mechanic BIG_JIMMY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    A zillion thanks m0bcg that must be the most comprehensive bit of freely given advice I have ever been fortunate enough to read.

    Have you ever thought about going into publishing?

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    Consultant Swingletree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Quote Originally Posted by m0bcg View Post


    put it with the BLEED nipple facing top , so air comes out .

    when bleeding it you can slacken the master cylinder pipe fitting , and then youll need a clean oil can [pump type] and bit of plastic pipe , then "back bleed" the fluid up from the slave bleed nipple until fluid comes out the master cylinder union , then tighten master cyl union and bleed nipple on slave you should have some pedal action .



    you can also then bleed it from the slave cyl bleed nipple if you want to .
    How's that work then??????????????

    If the bleed nipple is at the top then it would be a necessity to bleed from the pedal not just an "If you want to".


    Creator of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club, just ask me,

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Thanks for the info m0bcg,

    You sayd that "when you pull the slave cylinder out do it gently and then grip the rod and pull the slave cyl away from the rod, leaving the rod sticking in/out the gearbox hole .
    sometimes the clutch rod will be gripped by the rubber on end of slave cyl and not just slip out , but the rod is fixed to the pivot arm inside the gearbox by a plastic clip and needs to stay on the pivot arm and held down by the clip"

    What do I have to do if the plastic clip fell out of place?

    I was changing my salve cylinder and I am afraid I loosened the clutch release arm or the clip ypu mentioned.

    Do I have to pull out the engine to access the gear box??

    Thank you for your help,

    Sidney Lewis

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    Engineer Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Sidney,
    Are you saying the clutch rod came out of the housing?
    What would Jack Bauer do?




  8. #8

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    I have just seen this thread, hopefully u have some advise. I have just replaced the clutch and this exact same thing happened to me too, the clutch rod came out of the housing. I put the slave cylinder back but now the clutch is slipping. Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks

  9. #9
    Engineer bananahead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    The rod came out of the bellhousing? It is meant to be clipped to the clutch fork inside and to get it back on properly the easiest way i know of is to take the engine/box out or i think ive seen a remark about cutting a hole in the bellhousing with a grinder and rivetting a patch over it afterwards....

    Anyway i assume you must have got the rod back in somehow.. is it sat in the recess in the fork properly?? A steady hand a small torch and a mirror should allow you to see.

    Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out of it alive.
    1998 Discovery 300TDI (Disco PEW) (staying with friends )
    1988 Range Rover Hybrid 3.5V8 EFI 88" (Boris)
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Thank you for the reply,

    yes the rod looks liket it sits on the fork properly. What troubles me is that, even if it wasn't, shouldn't the gearbox be stuck in gear instead of slipping?

    Thanks again

  11. #11
    Engineer bananahead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Well if the rod was to one side slightly i was thinking maybe it is holding the fork back a tiny bit enough to make the clutch slip. You say you have just replaced the clutch.. Did you replace everything? If you replaced the slave cylinder make sure that it is exactly the same as your old one and the rod is not a different legnth (too long) or something silly like that.

    Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out of it alive.
    1998 Discovery 300TDI (Disco PEW) (staying with friends )
    1988 Range Rover Hybrid 3.5V8 EFI 88" (Boris)
    2001 Discovery TD5 ES (Reginald)
    1999 Renault Clio RT Auto 1.6 (for the mrs)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    I have removed and reinstalled the slave cylinder and the problem is solved. Apparently, as you have suggested, there must have been a problem with the rod not being completely alligned, I suppose. Thank you for all the help.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    Hi, just completed a clutch master and slave change on a 2000 Defender TD5 - found this thread useful and thought I'd add my tuppence worth by way of thanks (and in case I ever need to do this again!).

    General:

    Didn't bother removing the bonnet - just put a cloth in front of the windscreen wiper (to stop the bonnet hitting it) and tied a length of rope from the bonnet stay catch to the tow ball (over the roof). That gave plenty of access and stopped me braining myself with the bonnet (and amused the neighbours no end...)

    Master:

    Removed the plate from the pedal box (6 screws) and bungeed the l-shaped bracked containing the clutch sensor etc out of the way along with the main pipe to the coolant reservoir.

    You need to remove the top pipe to the coolant reservoir (the expansion one). Bungee out of the way along with the clutch sensor cable.

    It's tight, but despite initial doubts you can get the box out without taking anything else out of the way.

    I didn't need to remove/adjust any nuts inside the pedal box.

    Disconnect the pipe (going to the slave) from the right hand side of the adaptor assembly. You might want to put a cloth down, but my fluid had already leaked out so there was very little spillage.

    Remove trim from inside footwell. You need to remove fuse cover (the one with the 2 twiddly knobs), then unbolt the bonnet release from the driver footwell (2 nuts). This allows you to pull out the carpet and gain access to the trim in the footwell. You also need to remove the floor section of the carpet at this point.

    3 screws need to be removed from trim on right side - then slide it out leaving the metal plate in place. 3 (or is it 4) screws need to be removed from plate at top of footwell trim (plate comes out) plus the airvent which restricts access to one of the screws - you can then manhandle the trim out of the way (leave it place though) and gain access to the 6 bolts holding the pedal box in place.

    Remove the top right bolt first - this holds the spring - remember how this is put together for later.

    Remove the other bolts. Remove the pedal rubber (this is key). You can now manhandle the whole assembly out into the engine bay. This takes time, patience and in my case a couple of big screwdrivers to persuade is past the steering column - another pair of hands would help but I managed this on my own.

    Swop out the new master into the pedal box - this is pretty straightfoward and as per previous discussions.

    Make sure you don't tighten up the adaptor fully at this point - it needs to have some play when you put the pipe back on or you risk stripping the threads.

    Put the box back in - reattach the pipe to the slave as per the caveat above. Put all the bolts back as before. Make sure you don't trap or pinch any cables etc. Again, a bit of a tight fit but not too much trouble.

    At this point even if you are going to fit a slave you could still put everything all back together - you might want to leave the pedal box open in case of fine tuning but I made sure I left the rod adjusted the same as the previous one, and quite frankly adjusting it once its all back together would be a nightmare due to the lack of access.

    If you are not fitting a slave then bleed before you tighten the adaptor up, or use the bleed nipple on the slave.

    If you are fitting a slave, then go for a cup of tea at this point as the next bit involves skinned knuckles, lots of swearing and frankly takes about 5 times as long as it should due to poor access to the required bolts.

    Slave:

    You only need to remove 2 bolts (and the pipe). Unless you are planning to remove the exhaust then don't even think about trying this from below. Given a lot of fiddling however you can remove the nuts from above, with a 10mm socket and a suitable extension bar (a small one worked better in the end). The issue is you can only make it move a couple of mm each ratchet, particuarly on the bottom one. If you've got some help here, it would be useful for someone to go under the landy at this point and guide the socket onto the bolt - otherwise persevere and remove both bolts. Don't try and remove the pipe where it meets the slave - rather remove the flexible hose from the union at the bracket on the engine bay - you need 2 suitable spanners (8mm at the bottom as I recall). Remove this first then get the 2 bolts off.

    The point where it's ready to come off - BE CAREFUL - heeding previous advice in this thread and elsewhere use a pair of needle nose pliers or similar to hold the internal rod and then pull the slave housing away. I did this and had no issues.

    Remove the pipe etc from the old slave, transfer to slave. Reverse removal instructions to fit and then bleed clutch using the bleed nipple - you will need the loan of someone else's left foot at this point - it takes a while to get the whole system bled but it is pretty straightforward.

    Handy hints:

    When refitting trim, locate the previous hole in the trim and the hole in the metal plate behind using a small pick or screwdriver.

    When replacing the metal trim retaining bar above the driver footwell, get it roughly in place, and then tap from the passenger side using a bit of wood and lump hammer until bang on.

    HTH.

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    Engineer naylz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    my 90 td ran for three years with no clip holding the rod to the arm, and only one of the arm slipper/ cam things, needless to say the arm failed from metal fatigue
    If at first you dont succeed........... come on here and find out how its done properly!

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    Trainee freakyfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clutch master and slave cylinder change ??

    After reading this post i confidently went about changing the master cylinder as it was leaking down the clutch pedal.

    not using advice I chose not to change the slave cylinder as i was full sure the problem was the master leak.
    when i was bleeding the system i realised the slave was looking knackered aswell
    After a nightmare of claustrophobia i managed to get the slave off, (went in from underneath and moved the exhaust; i like to be able to see what im workin with as opposed to feeling around from above)

    But (like an idiot) I've gone and taken the push rod out and the clip. How am i going to locate where its supposed to be??

    Danny

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