Freelander TD4 Poor Starting Problem - Many cranks to start.

[davey1981]

Hello

Ok I have been having further problems with my girlfriends freelander td4 2004. First off we had an injector fail so this was replaced. We now have problems with poor starting.

Ok the misses starts her up in the morning 8am and its fine, starts first time. She drives 4 miles to work and there it stays until 1pm the problems start when she tries to start it at lunchtime, it takes 3-5 attempts to try and get it going, then when it starts it kicks out a load of smoke, once started it fine. She spends an hour at home, it starts fine and then drives back to work again (4miles), its then a problem trying to start it again at 5-6pm.

If we use the car at the weekends, I never have a problem with it. I'm not doing the short miles she is but we were out last weekend looking at cars and kept top starting at different garages and it was fine. No starting problems at all. I always try and give it a good run at the weekends, get it nice and warm.

I know the short trips won't be great for the car and its probably hardly getting warm when she gets to work but when we first got the car it was fine.

Injector leak test - Done.
Tested injectors - Done
Replaced faulty injector - Done
Checked Fuel Rail pressure sensor for corrosion - Done

Any ideas?

Cheers

Dave
Dave

[davey1981]

Anyone ?

[Oldskool]

from reading other threads - could it be the temperature sensor not working ? theres another thread on freelander starting problems running here recently which sounded similar - have a search as i could be on about the wrong model or something but it sounded like a cheap fix

[Chaser]

Just to clarify,

Cold starting is ok and hot starting is ok but warm starting is where the trouble is??

After the injector leak test was done and an injector replaced was it then ok for a time after and now you have a separate episode of starting problems??

[Oldskool]

thanks chaser i had a horrible feeling i was steering him wrong - safe hands now

[davey1981]

Just to clarify,

Cold starting is ok and hot starting is ok but warm starting is where the trouble is??

After the injector leak test was done and an injector replaced was it then ok for a time after and now you have a separate episode of starting problems??

Sorry for the delay in answering..

Yeah from cold it starts on the button every time, no problem there. When warm if we stop and start it straight away it usually starts ok too, its after its been left for 3-4 hours.

Yeah after the injector was replaced it was ok for a short period of time. its been into the garage since and the garage think the other three injectors now need replacing but when they showed us readouts the other injectors were showing normal results. we haven't seen readouts from the recent test.

Previous injector results before an injector was replaced..

Test One (at idle)
Cylinder 1 18.32
Cylinder 2 22.90
Cylinder 3 20.12
Cylinder 4 1.12

Test Two (at idle)
Cylinder 1 18.92
Cylinder 2 22.60
Cylinder 3 19.92
Cylinder 4 00.52

[Chaser]

My initial thought was it could have been a faulty camshaft sensor but they tend to cause a greater starting problem the hotter the engine is. Not so sure now. Another leak back test would be my next move or an up to date set of those injector results from the garage.

[davey1981]

I've been doing some more reading up.. I found this post http://forum.landrovernet.com/showth...arting-problem

The symptoms sounds the same as mine.. I wondered if the following could be a possible fix so tomorrow I plan to have the air box apart to see if there are any signs of this tar like substance. Depending on what I found I might also try another leak back test after.

After several weeks of testing the td4 is running very well with more power/economy,starts instantly with no misfire/blue smoking. local L r agent even tried replacing ecu,hi pressure pump etc ,etc ,etc they were just guessing after the diagnostic machine failed to pinpoint the problem, when removing the vehicle from their custody i mentioned that i was going to remove the cylinder head & check the condition of the valves etc, they asked why would i want to do that, what could it possibly prove! . Anyway i did and found all 8 inlet ports bunged up with that black tar substance,the inlet valves were absolutely covered in it,on further inspection the air box/inlet manifold was full of it.I steam cleaned the manifold & inlet ports, lightly ground in the valves &rebuilt with new gaskets & valve stem seals.I also blanked off the exhaust gas transfer tube to the egr valve to stop it happening again.

The garage want £600 to replace the remaining 3 injectors. I would be very annoyed if we paid out and it wasn't that. I'll ring the garage monday to see if they have the injector test results.

[Chaser]

Because this guy did so much at once it difficult to know if it was all necessary to actually get the thing starting better, not that I'm in any way critical of him doing a proper and complete job.

It is common for the exhaust gas recirculation valve to become choked, also the inlet manifold get pretty gummed up but I've never felt the need to remove a cylinder head for cleaning.

Your right though it depends on what you find. I suggest you remove the EGR valve and check how bad it is and give it a clean. If you want you can move on to cleaning the inlet manifold with oven cleaner, it's a very messy job but costs are minimal. The biggest restriction is going to be in the EGR valve though.

[davey1981]

Right... Been out this morning getting messy... and discovering some issues that might be causing the problem..

First the EGR was pretty mucky so cleaned this up and its now nice and clean. The inlet didn't seem too bad, so didn't bother cleaning this (pictures below).

My first finding was that the vacuum hose connected to the EGR was not connected it was just swinging around. This is now connected, what affects could this have?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/18b23c76.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/887ce3c1.jpg

My second finding was the cable connecting to the sensor at the end of the fuel rail had been trapped between the engine casing and the inlet manifold. See picture below. Now the cables have been well and truly squashed. I have pulled back the plastic casing to look at the cables but its really tight and I can just see the cables have been flattened, so not sure if they have broken inside and that sensor is no longer connected. That sensor is the fuel pressure sensor isn't it? This must have been done when the garage replaced the previous faulty injector, would they remove the inlet manifold to replace an injector?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/08e7341b.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/18b23c76.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/aac00fbd.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...y/4a2ef0fc.jpg

Could this be the answer to my problems? If this sensor isnt functioning correctly would it lead to starting problems?

Thanks

Dave

[Chaser]

Interesting find, this could cause starting and running issues.
You have no option but to put a cut in the plastic outer sheath so that you can examine the individual wires. Hold each individual wire each side of the trapped bit and pull, if it's core is cut/damaged the insulation will stretch indicating further repair needed.

The pipe will have been left off the EGR valve on purpose to disable it. It will not cause starting or running problems and I recommend you leave EGR disabled to prevent further blockage of the EGR valve. Pop that pipe back on and instead remove the other long pipe from the EGR solenoid and plug/seal it. Tie-wrap it to the other pipe on the solenoid.
It's not necessary to remove the inlet manifold to change an injector.

[davey1981]

Interesting find, this could cause starting and running issues.
You have no option but to put a cut in the plastic outer sheath so that you can examine the individual wires. Hold each individual wire each side of the trapped bit and pull, if it's core is cut/damaged the insulation will stretch indicating further repair needed.

The pipe will have been left off the EGR valve on purpose to disable it. It will not cause starting or running problems and I recommend you leave EGR disabled to prevent further blockage of the EGR valve. Pop that pipe back on and instead remove the other long pipe from the EGR solenoid and plug/seal it. Tie-wrap it to the other pipe on the solenoid.
It's not necessary to remove the inlet manifold to change an injector.

Thanks for the reply..

I'll work on the cable first.. Would this not throw up a fault if it wasn't functioning properly?

From reading up don't Land Rover sell a replacement harness because this one corrodes?

I am amazed a garage would do this, I know it might be pretty easy to do, but if the grommet was placed back it wouldn't of happened.

[Chaser]

Thanks for the reply..

I'll work on the cable first.. Would this not throw up a fault if it wasn't functioning properly?

From reading up don't Land Rover sell a replacement harness because this one corrodes?

I am amazed a garage would do this, I know it might be pretty easy to do, but if the grommet was placed back it wouldn't of happened.

It won't give a fault code unless it fails completely. Any damaged/corroded wiring causes resistance but the ecu can't necessarily differentiate between this and a sensor output.
There is a replacement harness for corrosion of the sensor plug contacts.

[davey1981]

Had a sleep on this and been thinking. It certainly felt better after one of the injectors was replaced and it went a few weeks being fine. As part of replacing an injector would a garage remove the battery or reset the ecu back to default in any way. All I'm thinking of, is that when reset the cars fine and as it starts to learn again from the false info that sensor is sending because of the squashed cable that's where the problems start.

I'm going to disconnect the battery this morning and speak to landrover about that replacement cable. It runs to a box fixed to the front of the engine, do you know if this cable is hard to replace?

Thanks for all your help.

Cheers

Dave

[Chaser]

Factory literature always recommends battery disconnection before work in case of short circuit with spanners etc. In practice it doesn't get done though, it can cause hassle (radio codes etc.) and most mechanics to use other sensible precautionary measures.

The ecu won't adapt to false rail sensor info. It has no way of detecting the info is false.

Never found the need to use the replacement harness, I believe it is straightforward, it connects directly to the ecu which means a new entry into to the e-box and swopping some contacts in the ecu connector.

I would prefer to repair the existing harness (if it turned out to be necessary) if i were faced with your situation.