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Thread: Angry gamekeeper

  1. #1
    Bender. (Of metal.) dannym2710's Avatar
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    Default Angry gamekeeper

    Ill start by saying, yes I was in the wrong but still it was a genuine accident.

    out green laning today on our bikes, we got a bit lost looking for a lane in the back end of nowhere, and being the clever souls no one had thought to bring a map but anyway, we eventually came up on what was very obviously landy tracks leading up onto the fell side, and a well used track at that with a byway type sign that had weathered blank. We took it thinkin it was the lane we were after, and after a mile or so ran across the gamekeeper. He was fairly obviously unhappy with us bein there so we stopped and switched off and I approached to ask if we were in the right place.

    I was met before I'd even opened my mouth with a load of abuse, and when I tried to explain the situation he got even shouter and started having a go saying he's seen me up there before and those other "orange bikes" and if I didn't f*** off he was gettin the shotgun out and pushed me. I tried to explain that despite the fact he's seen orange bikes before it certainly wasn't me as its the first time is ever been out laning on the bike, and why would I be asking for directions if I knew where I was? More f-ing and blinding and more pushing with threats of violence, shotguns etc. in the end I just walked away and got back on the bike and we went back the way we had come.

    Now I know I was certainly in the wrong for being there, but I did nothing to suggest I was looking to "tear up the place" we were fairly visibly unsure as we were riding very slowly and looking around, I approached him in a polite manner and asked if we were in the right place and refrained from swearing at him as much as possible until the shoving started, we were on what was visibly a well worn track cut by a a landy or similar vehicle and I tried to explain our predicament.
    Now I know that many will doubt that I was genuinely lost an just illegally laning, but those that know me should know I hate illegal laning , and being from a farming family, understanding of the impact on the land that it has.
    just a grumble to let of steam
    dan
    And on the 8th day,god created bikes, and the devil went unto the dealer and bought one

    Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club


  2. #2
    Mechanic Westside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Well there we go Dan...he sounded like a very unreasonable man.....i would say you did well to walk away.
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    Apprentice Owens grandad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Up with us, he would very likely have been reported for assault (he pushed you) and breach of the peace (shouting/swearing causing alarm, annoyance or disturbance) and wouldn't be a holder of a shotgun certificate for much longer............perhaps he was having a very bad day.
    now on the twilight side of the hill.............with still too much to do!

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by dannym2710 View Post
    .............if I didn't f*** off he was gettin the shotgun out and pushed me..............more pushing with threats of violence, shotguns etc. in the end I just walked away and got back on the bike and we went back the way we had come.
    An interesting contrast, I'm sure you'll forgive my pointing out, to a similar encounter in the USA. There, the landowner or his agent would have made sure his land was clearly "posted", i.e. with No Trespassing signs, which would give him the right to sue you in civil court for trespass, and even so would more than likely have been considerably more polite, as otherwise a. you might have him prosecuted for threatening you, not to mention the b. civil suit for the P.T.S.S. he had caused and probable loss of potency and ability therefore to father children, and c. you might well have been armed and blown his F.N. (fairly noxious) head off. Much more civilised.

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    Engineer ER1C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    No sympathy if you were on private land you take your chances and he is probably sick of the excuses every day from folk who cut up his land and jeopardise his livelihood. I wont even comment on the lunacy of the breach of peace comment. There may well have been a track but that was his private track and none of your business, no right of way whatsoever.

    Dont ride it unless you know its correct. As soon as you were unsure you should have gone back and checked with maps at home and next time carry them.

    You really do sound all meek and mild and apologetic but at the end of the day you are out riding like a typical ya hoo (as far as he was concerned)....just thinking its ok as you can get there. Always carry a map...... Its curious how you were lost and kept going when there was no clear signage and it took a confrontation to turn you around.

    The landowner is not responsible for signage, its the council.... so get on to them, why should he go to the cost and expense of signs every few miles to keep folk off his land.. it doesnt work that way.

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    Apprentice Owens grandad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by ER1C View Post
    I wont even comment on the lunacy of the breach of peace comment.
    Wind your neck in and read the first part of my comment.......some people!!!!
    now on the twilight side of the hill.............with still too much to do!

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    Mechanic Westside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Fellas Fellas, this is simply a countryside conflict........and as a 255 acre fishery manager one i run into regularly and the fact remains that the game keeper was unreasonable.

    Trust me, if somebody feels they have a right to be there they will tell you ASAP.......and as in Dan's case if they are lost they will say they are lost and the conflict can be easily defused, leaving all parties happy.

    That is what the gamekeeper did not do.....and that is actually his job, people do get lost, people do poach, people do cut fences and feel they have right of way......and it is down to the gamekeeper to manage the conflict.

    What he should have said to Dan was "Alright mate, you must be lost, i will be helpful in showing you the way off the land". Nothing more nothing less.....then when he catches you up there again you get the benefit of doubt, then on the third time he catches you he has a right to take things considerably further, involving law and such. However it very very rarely gets to this.

    Countryside conflict is rife in the UK due to the countries concentration of countryside users and very carefully laid out structures of conflict management exist, even 20+ years ago when i was at college.

    I also keep game and believe it or not it is very stressful........the game keeper for a high end estate or syndicate can be under huge pressure from various sources.....

    Game keeping is not the easiest of jobs at times especially at the busiest time of year.......i am not making excuses for the keeper......and i do firmly believe he was wrong in the way he approached Dan.
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    Engineer erubus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    I'm afraid I would have recorded him on my phone and shown the footage to the police and made sure he was prosecuted for threatening you with a gun. It doesnt matter if you were in the wrong or not, that is unacceptable behaviour from someone who should know better.

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    Disco 1 TDi specialist zollaf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    the op could also have been on a legitimate lane and its just the gamekeeper that doesn't think so. so, first thing i would do is work out on a map where i was and find put for sure from the council. if i were in the wrong, i would report him to the police. they don't take kindly to people using a firearm to threaten people, even on private land.

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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    i have not been out greenlaning on places i dont know where i'm going. just because the opportunity has never come up. but i always have a map, it does pay off. the few times i have been lost on private land (and sorry eric but it does happen) when i encountered someone i explained my position saying that a friend was stuck at work and i was looking for them. it generally puts their mind at ease. i will point out that these times i was not on a public track at all as i was working on private estates etc. as for angry game keepers, i have known my fair share. one even had a thing against me and got a lad i was working with to report back to him with things i had said. i have known a couple of really good ones too, but their job can be a stress and requires constant care, so when they see bikes and cars its a genuine worry about poachers. it would be the end of their job if they were known to let vehicles past that were then poaching. yes he should have been more polite or at least not threatened you, especially with threats with a firearm. good on you for going without getting into a fight and at least you know that lane now.
    chris
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Westside View Post
    Fellas Fellas, this is simply a countryside conflict........and as a 255 acre fishery manager one i run into regularly and the fact remains that the game keeper was unreasonable.

    Trust me, if somebody feels they have a right to be there they will tell you ASAP.......and as in Dan's case if they are lost they will say they are lost and the conflict can be easily defused, leaving all parties happy.

    That is what the gamekeeper did not do.....and that is actually his job, people do get lost, people do poach, people do cut fences and feel they have right of way......and it is down to the gamekeeper to manage the conflict.

    What he should have said to Dan was "Alright mate, you must be lost, i will be helpful in showing you the way off the land". Nothing more nothing less.....then when he catches you up there again you get the benefit of doubt, then on the third time he catches you he has a right to take things considerably further, involving law and such. However it very very rarely gets to this.

    Countryside conflict is rife in the UK due to the countries concentration of countryside users and very carefully laid out structures of conflict management exist, even 20+ years ago when i was at college.

    I also keep game and believe it or not it is very stressful........the game keeper for a high end estate or syndicate can be under huge pressure from various sources.....

    Game keeping is not the easiest of jobs at times especially at the busiest time of year.......i am not making excuses for the keeper......and i do firmly believe he was wrong in the way he approached Dan.
    Spot on - in the countryside and life in general (including internet forums), if you have an issue with someone, you are better off starting with a reasonable tone and attitude even (or especially) if you know you are in the right. As soon as you start threatening or abusing people (or infer that they are lunatics!*), you lose the moral high ground and turn someone who knew they were probably in the wrong and looking for a way out into someone who will either fight back verbally or physically or leave nursing a grievance - neither a desirable outcome.

    Dan admitted he and his mates were d!ickheads for not taking a map which is true but it does not always help, landowners frequently make it difficult to follow rights of way. I was doing a navigational exercise in Snowdonia last year as part of a Mountain Leader course and my group was completely thrown by our inability to find a footpath on the edge of a village. After much scratching of heads we realised that we were in the right place but the land owner had walled over the stile from the road to a height that made it impossible to see that a right of way existed and very difficult to climb over. Subsequent stiles on that path were blocked with building rubble and domestic refuse.

    I love hillwalking and enjoy the challenge of navigating in open areas but really hate picking my way round farmland etc. with poorly marked or deliberately/thoughtlessly obstructed rights of way. IME as often as not it is townies who have bought country properties at a price which reflects the rights of way over their land who then try to prevent others from exercising those rights.

    *FWIW whether or not the gamekeeper's actions would be capable of being regarded as a breach of the peace north of the border, in England and Wales it could easily fall within the scope of common assault (a realistic threat of immediate and unlawful violence) - all very unnecessary.
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Six and two threes, there is no excuse for being lost and trespassing. In this day and age of GPS you should be able to give at least a six figure grid at the press of a button even if you don't own a gps you shouldn't be venturing out if you don't have that skill. You were in the wrong, man up and take the blame.
    At the same time though there is no excuse whatsoever for threatening someone with a firearm.......................


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    Bender. (Of metal.) dannym2710's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    I accept I was in the wrong, I've not claimed otherwise. My issue was being threatened with a gun.wrong or not I'm not having that.and those that think I just don't understand, my family farmed one of the biggest estates in the area, as well as there being other smaller farms within different parts of the family, and I hve grown up around farms for the past 24 years. I know I should t hve taken it if I was unsure but when it's just p!ssed it down and you're wringing wet an just want to get home, I'm sure most of you would take the chance rather than spin around and go back the way you came with adds roughly 20 extra miles to the trip
    And on the 8th day,god created bikes, and the devil went unto the dealer and bought one

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    Mechanic Westside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Do not worry about it, country man or not.........there was no situation here that could not have been easily sorted and i hope you do not feel that all game keepers should be tarnished with this kind of bad malice.

    As for guns being pointed well that is very very serious.......and i strongly urge you to think hard about the further action that can and maybe should be taken.

    There is no need for any of this and i am sure you just ran into a very stressed individual. I can not imagine it will happen again in the too near future.

    I think there is a lesson to be learned here for all, Some countryside pursuits do not mix, however that does not mean we shouldn't all get along.

    On my lake and shoot i get Sailors, kayakers, Ornithologists, Fowlers, Walked up shooters, Anglers, Ramblers, Poachers, Campers, fire starters, Fly tippers, Yahoo's etc so imagine the potential for conflicts there......As the only professional out of all of them i have never once raised my voice to any one of them.......I am not saying i am great, i am saying that there is absolutely no need for this kind of conduct as there will be no resolve under frayed tempers. We all have the right to be there or at least think we do, but it must be under amicable agreement......i think most countyside users would agree, thus the system rarely throws up what you had to endure....and for that i apologise on behalf of my profession.

    Do not let it mar your enjoyment of the countryside.
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    Forum Approved Trader christofloffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Angry gamekeeper

    Quote Originally Posted by dannym2710 View Post
    I accept I was in the wrong, I've not claimed otherwise. My issue was being threatened with a gun.wrong or not I'm not having that.and those that think I just don't understand, my family farmed one of the biggest estates in the area, as well as there being other smaller farms within different parts of the family, and I hve grown up around farms for the past 24 years. I know I should t hve taken it if I was unsure but when it's just p!ssed it down and you're wringing wet an just want to get home, I'm sure most of you would take the chance rather than spin around and go back the way you came with adds roughly 20 extra miles to the trip
    yeah like i said, it happens, we dont all do everything right 100% of the time. being threatened with a gun is outright wrong and could be pushed but it really wouldnt be worth it. in a perfect situation you wouldnt have lost the lane and pursued a different one, but the world isnt perfect and we make mistakes, we learn from them and do better next time. think what the world would be like if every person that got lost was threatened with violence when they have asked for help. i'm sure we have all turned around in somebodys drive or got lost in a country lane and ended up on a big house drive. its exactly the same except for the tarmac.

    and swingle, i mean no offence but i deliberately dont own a gps and have not got a smart phone. that doesnt mean i shouldnt go out because i cant "push a button" i take maps which do the same job but are reliable. GPS is good but overated i dont know any serious walkers, hiker or climbers that rely on them. incedentally a flexible sleeve is available to waterproof OS mapsand works a treat. a friend of mine did a 6000 mile trip on a crosser on lanes etc and it proved priceles as he could just stuff it back in the pannier.
    chris
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