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Thread: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

  1. #16
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by jozg44 View Post
    The fact that it smokes and runs on three cylinders until its warmed up implies that one of them is 'weak'. You've already checked/changed the obvious things.

    One thing more to check is, when its running on three, is it always the same cylinder that's not picking up? Once it's started up and running (on three), slacken each of the injector pipe unions at the injector end (being careful not to get in the way of the high pressure spray). When you crack the union on a good cylinder, the engine will bog down more or even stop all together. Cracking the union on the weak cylinder will either make no difference or noticeably less.

    As you can see, smoke colour is a useful diagnostic tool.

    Jack
    As Jack correctly states some investigative work is required here, I am no Diesel expert but am in the maintenance industry and thus know best practice to save time and money on down time.
    If you take those 25 year old injectors out to be tested I would be very surprised if the results say 'perfect working order within manufacturers specification' so you now have a bill for testing and another for the repair of 4 injectors which could turn out to be nothing to do with the smoke when refitted!
    You need to narrow the fault down as Jack states.
    Could you borrow a hand held infrared temperature indicator, if pointed at the exhaust manifold next to each exhaust port the one not burning will be significantly lower temperature then the others without even putting a spanner on the engine!
    Double check this then by cracking injector pipes, be carful though I am not knowledgable about the pressures used, high pressure diesel cutting your finger off is not good!!
    Then swap injectors around in the engine, always mark things up though so you can put everything back as it was, last thing you want is to introduce a new fault during diagnosis.
    If the fault has moved then yippee get an injector or repair, I'd be maybe then consider a refurb on them all if the same age and you need to know why, if its water in your diesel it might be needing all 4 again in a few weeks.
    If the fault does not move with the injector then put it back where it started from and maybe a compression check next, could be a sticking valve.
    Again try to pin it down, if it shows up as low compression on No 4 then take the rocker cover off and is it possible to measure the valve stem lengths to see if one does measure low compared to the same valves on the other 3 cylinders.
    You need to be methodical and certain that once you have found something you can then prove it beyond reasonable doubt before spending your hard earned money.
    I am trying to get my head round why it would go away once warm though, this must be a big clue, if low on
    compression why would it do that, does the valve free up again once warm??
    I had e vehicle once run on 3 every morning, I worked out it must have been leaking water into the bore of one cylinder when parked up, after a few miles the water was cleared and it ran ok, I removed the coolant expansion tank cap when I parked up one night as soon as I could safely do so and then refitted the next day, vehicle started up on 4 straight away as there had been no pressure to force water in all night long.
    Replaced head gasket as i found a corroded part between the water jacket and No 2 which i had already proved buy removing each HT lead whilst it was running on 3, don't want to do job and find it was a cracked liner or head do you?
    It's all about investigation and proving what you have found and a reason for it doing it, no point in repair lasting 2 weeks is there?
    A garage will not do this, they will swap parts at your expense using little knowledge and a lot of '"well last time we had one do this it was the pump"
    Fault still the same, they'll tell you the pump was definitely shot you have a shiny pump for 500 and still smokey!
    Now what, swap 4 injectors, then the pipes, then they'll take it to an expert who will start doing what you are going to do after reading this!
    Good luck, keep us posted each time you do anything and the result of it.
    Eventually it will be apparent exactly what it is.

  2. #17
    Engineer dave18's Avatar
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Hmm Cheers Paul , Couple of things right away got me thinking, Yep I belive I can get access to a Temp indicator. Also liking the idea about the Header tank cap. As said its all about elimination, And yeah I doubt the injectors are great and thats why I took the chance on some nozzles to see if that helped.

    Cheers will keep you updated as and when.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    What engine is it? I had 2.5TD engine in mine and that was exactly the same. Plumes of unburnt diesel (white smoke) until the engine was warm then it started first turn and on all 4cyl. I changed cam, adjusted tappits all sorts and nothing changed it. Just put it down the nature of the beast!


    Luke

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    I'm not saying this is your problem but I had the exact same situation with my Octavia 1.9TDI with loads of white smoke until warm and then it ran fine with no smoke. I had a slightly bent conrod - replaced the rod (all four) and all has been fine since. In my case the turbo seals blew and the engine ran away on it's own oil and this is what caused it. Your engine would have had to have swallowed a load of oil or water for this to happen though. Been wading recently?
    Shame you're not nearer to me as I've got a diesel compression tester you could have used.
    1982 Ex Mod 109 - currently 200TDI powered >>>>>

    www.land-rover.org

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Cheers, Not been near any wet stuff for ages as I dont want to do it until Im happy with the intake system which I am now lol

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Well that week or two turned into near on 4 lol,

    Anyways purchased a 'Block Test' and just tried it, Ran the engine up to temp pumped the bulb a couple of times and then it stopped filling instantly and took about 40secs to fill the bulb, Anyhow After leaving it on the side for 5 mins the fluid is still solid blue so that implys that no combustion gasses are getting into the coolant system ( thank fook) ,

    Anyhows what else can I check this is getting confusing, Only things I can think of is leaky injector or valves not closing correctly. Anyone else got any ideas ???

  7. #22
    Disco 1 TDi specialist zollaf's Avatar
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    thats not how you use a block sniff tester. it sounds like you have sucked water into it and blocked it up. ??? you pump air through it from directly over the header for a few minutes until it either turns or not. do it over the end of the exhaust to test, then in freash air to change it back to blue. the bulb shouldn't 'fill' with anything.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Sorry was not explaining my self clearly, The instructions said fit the unit to the header tank then pump the bulb to suck the gases from the header tank into the fluid, I squeezed the bulb a couple of times and it staid flat for about 40 secs as if there was no more gas to suck into it. Pulled it off the header tank and sat it on the side and after a couple of mins it still was blue.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Just had a quick 'service' of my 200Tdi, new filter, injectors re-conned, AND reset the injector pump timing. Result has drastically improved cold starting, less black smoke under load, no white smoke on the overrun when cold and it even has a slight diesel 'bark'.

    I would suggest checking the fuel pump timing, which may need advancing slightly.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Why would the fuel pump need adjusting unless the gear has came lose or somethings wrong with it?? Been lucky and cant say ive ever had black smoke apart from the common rail start up or any other smoke on over run, Use engine breaking alot so would of thought I would of seen it. What do you mean by Injectors re-conned do you mean new nozzles ??? Will check the timing thou. going to do the tappets today or tomorrow see if that helps.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Well did my tappets they wernt too bad but all got adjusted, As for timing im not sure whats up as to get the Fuel Pump pin in the TDC mark is no where to be seen near the rib, Its atleast 45deg out or more!!

    Anyways Started her up and still the same, So made a couple of calls and was pointed in the direction of a local Injection test company. Whipped the Injectors out and he said they should be cracking at about 200Bar well the closest one was about 210 the other 3 was 240 upto 300 Bar. And the spray patten was all over the place, So he is going to redress them and give me a call when they are done. But he did say the Bosch Fuel pumps do suffer from serious failure as in chunks will break off instead of normal wear. so hope its not the pump.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave18 View Post
    Why would the fuel pump need adjusting unless the gear has came lose or somethings wrong with it?? Been lucky and cant say ive ever had black smoke apart from the common rail start up or any other smoke on over run, Use engine breaking alot so would of thought I would of seen it. What do you mean by Injectors re-conned do you mean new nozzles ??? Will check the timing thou. going to do the tappets today or tomorrow see if that helps.
    The injector spray pattern and opening pressures were wrong. Stripped cleaned and re-fettled, and when refitted made quite a difference to the cold start. When I checked, the FIP timing was retarded by a couple of degrees (dunno exactly by how much but I could only fit a 6mm drill into the pump timing slot instead of the expected 9.5mm drill). Slackened off and reset the pump timing to standard, and the multi coloured smoke went away.

    The pump timing could go out for a number of reasons, either slack bolts or worn timing belt/gears or a multitude of weird combinations of things.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Same as my injectors, Out of curiosity roughtly how much per injector did you pay ??? Ive got a timing kit and yeah the pin was tight unless I wiggled the crank. Whats puzzling me is that when the crank pulley is at TDC the Pump is about 45 deg out so that would be several teeth jumped and I replaced the belt less than 5k with a Dalco and new tensioner so doubt its them. Will use the fly wheel pin and see what its like with the pump.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave18 View Post
    Same as my injectors, Out of curiosity roughtly how much per injector did you pay ???
    110.00 for the four. Dropped into local specialist Tuesday lunchtime, collected on Wednesday at 10. can't complain.

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    Default Re: LOTS of White smoke until warm need advice please.

    Similar price, Been quoted 35 each so 140 Dropped off near end of day yesterday tested them there and then and invited me to watch so I could see for my self and should be ready tomorrow. Said he liked these old engines as modern injectors are a minefield.

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